Zerosum79 Discusses the ABC's of Playing SNG's

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Debi

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In this next video from DragTheBar zerosum79 (Greg) discusses the keys to becoming an expert sng player. This is the complete video of Part 1 in which he specifically covers pivot points - general ranges that work most of the time. (it is divided into 4 parts)

Zerosum79 is a sng coach at DTB and is also a member of Team Moshman. I can attest personally for his credibility and knowledge of sng's - he was my first sng coach when I started playing last year. I had some excellent coaching sessions with him that helped me get started.

I recommend this video to all of you who are currently playing sng's, want to start playing sng's, and those who play in the Cardschat league and in our regularly scheduled private games.

Hope you enjoy!

Zerosum79's ABC's of SNG's Part 1 (there are 4 parts to view!)
Greg will be responding to questions in this thread

See also the following from our friends at DTB:

GiantBuddah's Hand of the Day

BeachJustice on Overbet Bluffs

Ask Mental Game Coach Jared Tendler

Ask Me Anything (Dusty Schmidt aka Leatherass in the well)
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zerosum79

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Hey guys. I am happy to answer any questions and to be a new member of cardschat.

Unfortunately as you may see, this video does actually pose more questions than it answers. This is the first of what will conclude as a 7 part video series on Drag the Bar walking you through ever step necessary to master 9 man SNG's.

Enjoy
zero
 
dg1267

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Welcome to CC, Zero. I've enjoyed your whole ABC series so far. There is a ton of good info for SnG players with the ABC series and the other vids on DTB.

I'm sure you will enjoy it here as well as CC members really are the nicest on the webernet.:D
 
Worak

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Welcome to CC Zero.

I'm happy to see another great player joining us and looking forward to actually play with you in our games (though it might hurt my winrate :rolleyes:)
 
dg1267

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Welcome to CC Zero.

I'm happy to see another great player joining us and looking forward to actually play with you in our games (though it might hurt my winrate :rolleyes:)

Honestly, how can you hurt 0%?:p
 
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Welcome to CC Zero.

I'm happy to see another great player joining us and looking forward to actually play with you in our games (though it might hurt my winrate :rolleyes:)


I promise not to make any wide calls unless I have to!

zero
 
NineLions

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Nice starting video. Hard to have many questions though since it's just the start.

I like the way you present the information though. It looks like you've really thought about how a beginner thinks or should start to think.
 
Worak

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Zero - since you're a sng coach -

I won a coaching session with a team moshman coach (thanks again CC for the opportunity)- I don't know with whom yet and I never had a coaching session before.

What should I do / know before the coaching session ?
  • Software / Hardware needed ?
  • HEM setup ?
  • how does the session proceed ?
  • how much time should I calculate ?
 
Debi

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Just to make sure you know - this video is in 4 parts.
 
cjatud2012

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bump

Will check this out more this afternoon, when I have to stay in first aid by myself!
 
Poker Orifice

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Are you still playing STT/SNG's these days?
How are the SuperTurbos going? (I've bumped into you on the tables a few times).
Looking forward to watching more. tks for posting this here on CC
 
dj11

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Hey guys. I am happy to answer any questions and to be a new member of cardschat.

Unfortunately as you may see, this video does actually pose more questions than it answers. This is the first of what will conclude as a 7 part video series on Drag the Bar walking you through ever step necessary to master 9 man SNG's.

Enjoy
zero

What do you consider 'mastery' ? Just a +ROI, or some specific ROI number? In my case I have maintained a br via SnG's over several years, and even pulled out money, but its the 'mastery' part that stumps me.
 
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so this is pretty much against a loose maniac? is there specific vpip, pf, ag% we should be looking for?
 
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zerosum79

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Zero - since you're a sng coach -

I won a coaching session with a team moshman coach (thanks again CC for the opportunity)- I don't know with whom yet and I never had a coaching session before.

What should I do / know before the coaching session ?
  • Software / Hardware needed ?
  • HEM setup ?
  • how does the session proceed ?
  • how much time should I calculate ?

Not sure. Probably depends on the coach but I would see if you can just get their name and send them a PM on the moshman forums to find out more. I am sure they would be happy to get all the logistics cleared up before the session.

zero
 
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What do you consider 'mastery' ? Just a +ROI, or some specific ROI number? In my case I have maintained a br via SnG's over several years, and even pulled out money, but its the 'mastery' part that stumps me.

I think someone who has mastered SNG's has a deep understanding of the implications of making different types of decisions based on the tournament structure.

A really good ROI for the low limits is probably +9 to +11%. If you look at Sippin_Criss at the $16s on stars, he has maintained a +11% roi at least 50K games. He has a deep understanding of the games reflected in his forum posts and videos. He is a good person to look at as having mastered the game.

zero
 
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Are you still playing STT/SNG's these days?
How are the SuperTurbos going? (I've bumped into you on the tables a few times).
Looking forward to watching more. tks for posting this here on CC

I have been donking around in the supers because I was making a vid on playing short effective stacks and wanted to brush up on my loose shoving/calling ranges as well as to revisit calling getting favorable pot odds. Supers are like my kryptonite. For some reason my worst downswing is at the supers and I have never proved I am a winning player at them yet (although I am pretty convinced I am making good decisions). So I guess I have something to prove at them and have been playing them lately. Whats your FTP SN (if you don't mind sharing)?

zero
 
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hey there. i was just wondering when all of the pivot points videos (open shoving, bubble, good vs bad) were going to be up? the calling shoves was great. i excelled it right away.
 
Makwa

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Excellent vids Greg, you have a great teaching manner!! :congrats:
 
cardplayer52

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Ok i'm going to watch these videos. on the 1st one now. i can say yes zerosum is definately qualtified as a coach. loved his pivot points concept it helped me learn icm as well as other stuff he has you do as a part of his coaching. as for mastery you can't forget faarcyde at fulltilt he maintains a solid 7% roi at the highest stakes SNGs for a large sample as well.
 
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I will soon be getting DTB membership for one month, thanks to the league. So i will be watching a few of these videos. One thing that gets me, and i apologise if you cover this in your videos. But the magic range? is that your vid? if so, while i understand it's probably a very good concept for a novice player to be able to go out with this range and crush the low limits, it strikes me that not very many of these players will go on to higher limits. It's my opinion that being able to review your own play is far more important in the long run than learning a range to shove and fold. Ive never liked the idea of push/fold charts, and never will. I hope to actually watch these videos, what are your thoughts on teaching your students to be able to objectively review their games? and again, i apologise if it's covered in your videos. Good to have you at CC. :D.
 
cardplayer52

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I will soon be getting DTB membership for one month, thanks to the league. So i will be watching a few of these videos. One thing that gets me, and i apologise if you cover this in your videos. But the magic range? is that your vid? if so, while i understand it's probably a very good concept for a novice player to be able to go out with this range and crush the low limits, it strikes me that not very many of these players will go on to higher limits. It's my opinion that being able to review your own play is far more important in the long run than learning a range to shove and fold. Ive never liked the idea of push/fold charts, and never will. I hope to actually watch these videos, what are your thoughts on teaching your students to be able to objectively review their games? and again, i apologise if it's covered in your videos. Good to have you at CC. :D.


that's his exact point it's not a push/fold chart per say, but a chart of pivot points base on very common spots. it's sort of the same thing as having a certain set of opening hands(or opening hand chart) ofc these arent set in stone but you make adjustment to these points based on a number of variables. i found it very helpful as it gives me a good starting point and i know which way to adjust tighter or looser based on the situation. it's the same as looking at a nash chart and adjusting for the villian's play. as for the "magic range" that's a term by Collin Moshman himself(I believe) and as far as I know he uses this in his high stakes SNGs.
 
Debi

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Zero - since you're a sng coach -

I won a coaching session with a team moshman coach (thanks again CC for the opportunity)- I don't know with whom yet and I never had a coaching session before.

What should I do / know before the coaching session ?
  • Software / Hardware needed ?
  • HEM setup ?
  • how does the session proceed ?
  • how much time should I calculate ?

Not sure. Probably depends on the coach but I would see if you can just get their name and send them a PM on the moshman forums to find out more. I am sure they would be happy to get all the logistics cleared up before the session.

zero

I will be arranging all of this post-Vegas as stated in the league thread. :)
 
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zerosum79

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I will soon be getting DTB membership for one month, thanks to the league. So i will be watching a few of these videos. One thing that gets me, and i apologise if you cover this in your videos. But the magic range? is that your vid? if so, while i understand it's probably a very good concept for a novice player to be able to go out with this range and crush the low limits, it strikes me that not very many of these players will go on to higher limits. It's my opinion that being able to review your own play is far more important in the long run than learning a range to shove and fold. Ive never liked the idea of push/fold charts, and never will. I hope to actually watch these videos, what are your thoughts on teaching your students to be able to objectively review their games? and again, i apologise if it's covered in your videos. Good to have you at CC. :D.

The "magic range" is a term that I coined after discovering this pivot point. It really came out of reviewing lots of SNG wiz spots and realizing that it pops up over and over again. However, the lightbulb went off when I was watching a Stoxpoker video (Collin's "Midstakes Medley" video if it still exists) and he used the exact range I had been working on. So I did some simulation and found the first pivot point and I called it the magic range.

The cool thing about the magic range is that it is basically very static and does not change much. If you simulate situations for restealing in SNG Wiz you will find it is very hard to get it to go wider than about AJo+/ATs+, 77/66+ without assuming unrealistic stats for players. It also is very tough to make it tighter than AK+/TT+.

Charts are essentially a way to get a beginning player winning and making good decisions 95% of the time. These concepts will take someone who knows nothing about SNG's and iron their game out in short order. In the long run I agree that it is not all that is necessary. However having a default pivoting range for most situations just simplifies things so much that its really essential if you want to make most situations easy and be able to focus your attention on the 5% of times that you have to make a tough decision and the clock is against you.

Pivots are not set in stone. They are flexible and can be moved around based on game conditions. This is where an expert gets their edge. Understanding not only what the pivot is but also how and when to adjust it. It is a dynamic concept not a static concept. I think that may be part of the misunderstanding.

Regards,
zero
 
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Hmm, it does sound interesting. I really wanted to make sure it wasnt some kind of push/fold chart.

the same situations come up so often, and a chart like this one could save players a LOT of time. Ive spent countless hours reviewing spots in wiz, and i do know what you are talking about when you say similar spots come up often. However i still think that knowledge of backgroud workings of ICM and how to review games properly is vital.

So anyways i really like the idea, and look forward to actually watching the whole video, before sepculating again :D
 
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