You get what you ask for?

S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
The other day I made the decision to stay at .01/.02 instead of moving up to .02/.05. My plan is to work on my confidence and play a few of the guys that I have been having some challenges with so that when I move up I've already minimized the learning curve.

Well it seems I got my wish. This guy (to me) seemed like a pretty solid player had been 3 betting well, was picking his spots, and was making it difficult for me to extract any money out of him. I would consider him TAG.

Anyway have a look at the hand I've posted. Could I have played it any other way?

Thanks in advance :)

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

MP1 ($3.64)
MP2 ($1.94)
MP3 ($0.77)
CO ($2)
Button ($2.98)
Hero (SB) ($1.93)
BB ($2.19)
UTG ($3.05)
UTG+1 ($2.54)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q
diamond.gif
, Q
spade.gif

7 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.12) 8
club.gif
, A
heart.gif
, 3
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $0.06, Hero raises to $0.18, BB calls $0.12

Turn: ($0.48) A
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.46, BB raises to $1.95 (All-In), Hero folds
 
T

tohos

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 30, 2013
Total posts
269
Chips
0
Cbet flop. Cbet turn. You should fold when he jams on that turn. Really not beating anything except air.

If you decide to check flop as you did, I think you should just play a bluff catcher rather than doing check raise shenanigans. Whats your reason for check raising? Trying to push him off an Ace? Previous history where he folded to this type of play? Just doesn't make much sense to me.

Considering its blind v blind, dry flop and you are both regs, he probably isn't folding an Ace here very often. So your check raise will usually end up folding out his weak hands that you want value from and the hands that beat you are unlikely to fold. That is the exact opposite of what you want.

I probably check call down all the way on this board. If the Ace didn't pair up I'd most likely fold to a third barrel. I still prefer cbetting though. That way we can possibly try to rep a bigger Ace sometimes. He's not likely to have a big Ace considering he didn't 3bet you blind v blind.
 
S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
Here's another one. This was my last hand at this table. This guy was directly to my right and was another solid player. I was smack dab in the middle. Lucky me! Considering I actually think I played pretty well so I'm not really unhappy about my play but the more I play the more I realize I need help from you guys lol

PokerStars Hand #112671018862: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2014/03/02 14:31:10 PT [2014/03/02 17:31:10 ET]
Table 'Nembus III' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Bulldozor ($3.60 in chips)
Seat 2: rocketf1 ($1.94 in chips)
Seat 3: mantorrasfbb ($0.80 in chips)
Seat 4: NewDeathAng ($2 in chips)
Seat 5: Jim_O'F ($2.98 in chips)
Seat 6: Sneaky Feet ($1.23 in chips)
Seat 7: badyahtzee ($2.79 in chips)
Seat 9: kidpoker9230 ($2.60 in chips)
Bulldozor: posts small blind $0.01
rocketf1: posts big blind $0.02
verrocchio82: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sneaky Feet [Kd Kc]
mantorrasfbb: folds
NewDeathAng: folds
Jim_O'F: calls $0.02
Sneaky Feet: raises $0.04 to $0.06
badyahtzee: folds
kidpoker9230: folds
Bulldozor: folds
rocketf1: raises $0.10 to $0.16
Jim_O'F: calls $0.14
Sneaky Feet: calls $0.10
*** FLOP *** [Jd 8d Tc]
rocketf1: bets $0.18
Jim_O'F: raises $0.22 to $0.40
Sneaky Feet: raises $0.67 to $1.07 and is all-in
rocketf1: folds
Jim_O'F: calls $0.67
*** TURN *** [Jd 8d Tc] [Ad]
*** RIVER *** [Jd 8d Tc Ad] [7s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Jim_O'F: shows [Th Td] (three of a kind, Tens)
Sneaky Feet: shows [Kd Kc] (a pair of Kings)
Jim_O'F collected $2.71 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2.81 | Rake $0.10
Board [Jd 8d Tc Ad 7s]
Seat 1: Bulldozor (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: rocketf1 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: mantorrasfbb folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: NewDeathAng folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Jim_O'F showed [Th Td] and won ($2.71) with three of a kind, Tens
Seat 6: Sneaky Feet showed [Kd Kc] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 7: badyahtzee folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: kidpoker9230 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
Cbet flop. Cbet turn. You should fold when he jams on that turn. Really not beating anything except air.

If you decide to check flop as you did, I think you should just play a bluff catcher rather than doing check raise shenanigans. Whats your reason for check raising? Trying to push him off an Ace? Previous history where he folded to this type of play? Just doesn't make much sense to me.

Considering its blind v blind, dry flop and you are both regs, he probably isn't folding an Ace here very often. So your check raise will usually end up folding out his weak hands that you want value from and the hands that beat you are unlikely to fold. That is the exact opposite of what you want.

I probably check call down all the way on this board. If the Ace didn't pair up I'd most likely fold to a third barrel. I still prefer cbetting though. That way we can possibly try to rep a bigger Ace sometimes. He's not likely to have a big Ace considering he didn't 3bet you blind v blind.

What's a "bluff catcher" and how would I play it (see I'm new)? I did c/bet to try and push him off. It works quite well on passive players because they basically bet what they see or bluff a lot on scare cards. I'm learning that this isn't so with better more experienced players.
 
Keith_MM

Keith_MM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Total posts
1,334
Awards
1
Chips
3
why did you call pre ? that is such a super easy reraise to 25bb at higher stakes or shove preflop at 2nl. you will get called by plenty of "solid" players at 2nl. you played it so that they didn't have to put any more money in the pot to set mine you. 2nl players spew and the way out of 2nl quickly is to take fat value , not to piss about and let poor players suck out on you on the cheap. If you do that you will win small pots and lose stacks.

also , Why are you sitting with $1.23 at the start of this hand. nothing shouts fish louder at 2nl than not buying in for 100bb at least on stars , and reinforces that you are a fish if you don't have auto top up on.you are limitting the amount you can win with your big hands by being short stacked and that will kill your winrate .

what was your reason for shoving the flop ? it looks like it was I have kings i have the best hand from the way you played it , rather than sitting back and thinking the hand through. rocket f1 min 3bet your raise and put out a less than half pot cbet , then he gets raised by a guy that limp called a 3bet pre, pretty much screams a marginal hand pre that hit the flop , so you should be factoring in hands that now have made straights , 2 pairs, sets , open ended draws flush draws. you may still have the best hand but its unlikely on such a coordinated board with this flop action.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
suby_rafael

suby_rafael

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Total posts
1,039
Chips
0
When you put out a c-bet on the flop and got raised you should have mucked those ladies. If you call the flop then check the turn and fold if he bets again. If he checks the turn then you can think about check calling the river depending on the size of his river bet. Some players might even check fold the flop. So you got the information you wanted anyways but it cost you a few more bucks than it should have ...
 
S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
When you put out a c-bet on the flop and got raised you should have mucked those ladies. If you call the flop then check the turn and fold if he bets again. If he checks the turn then you can think about check calling the river depending on the size of his river bet. Some players might even check fold the flop. So you got the information you wanted anyways but it cost you a few more bucks than it should have ...

Yep definitely see that now. Funny how everything becomes clear after the fact. I'll save some money next time I'm in this situation. Thanks!
 
S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
why did you call pre ? that is such a super easy reraise to 25bb at higher stakes or shove preflop at 2nl. you will get called by plenty of "solid" players at 2nl. you played it so that they didn't have to put any more money in the pot to set mine you. 2nl players spew and the way out of 2nl quickly is to take fat value , not to piss about and let poor players suck out on you on the cheap. If you do that you will win small pots and lose stacks.

Thanks I'll work on not slow playing pre when I'm re-raised with high pocket pair. I see that I should have shoved. I may have pushed villains off that had lower pairs or Ax
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
SNIP<<<<I see that I should have shoved. I may have pushed villains off that had lower pairs or Ax

I think I can safely say buddy with the 10-10 would have folded to a shove!!!:p
 
S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
I think I can safely say buddy with the 10-10 would have folded to a shove!!!:p

Lol I should have listened to my own advice on this one. I posted in a different thread that seldom does too pair stay the best hand after the flop. And here's a perfect example.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
Hand 1. It's 2nl. KISS. Bet the flop. Why complicate the situation any more than necessary? What are the pros and cons of check-raising?

Hand 2. It's 2nl. KISS. 4bet. Since you decided to play an awkward stack size, you pot commit yourself, so you might as well shove.

And as stated, play a full stack. As it happens, you probably get stacked and lose more. But that doesn't change the quality of your decision-making; playing short is still sub-optimal.
 
S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
Hand 1. It's 2nl. KISS. Bet the flop. Why complicate the situation any more than necessary? What are the pros and cons of check-raising?

Hand 2. It's 2nl. KISS. 4bet. Since you decided to play an awkward stack size, you pot commit yourself, so you might as well shove.

And as stated, play a full stack. As it happens, you probably get stacked and lose more. But that doesn't change the quality of your decision-making; playing short is still sub-optimal.

Ah yes the KISS method. That's something I have to work on definitely. I've never been very good at simplicity. I do seem to be having a bit of an issue these last couple I weeks. Please don't take this as a complaint it's more of an observation. I'm finding that a lot of the time when I get into a hand everyone else folds. I'll sit at a table, play maybe 5 hands and win them, then everyone shuts down. I'm not saying I'm super poker man, as you can see from my above leaks, but I do feel that I'm able to out play probably 75%-80% of the players at this level. Do I just suck it up and grind? Searching for the tougher opponents?

Thoughts?
 
Keith_MM

Keith_MM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Total posts
1,334
Awards
1
Chips
3
that is one of your biggest leaks. These two hands show that you can't outplay 75-80 % of 2nl players ....these are the exact same leaks that most other 2nl players have.

They are afraid to bet there strong hands either trying to get tricky and letting opponents draw cheaply or thinking that they won't call bets. What are your stats ....when you say you play 5 hands , is that 5 out of 100 i.e a super nit so people realize you are only playing the premium hands preflop and refuse to payoff .

Why do you want to search for tougher opponents, all the better players are trying to find the weak players and take their money before the other regs get it. You don't make your profits off good players , you make your money from the bad players who over value their hands, can't fold their premiums , chase their draws without odds, play trashy hands. sall 3bets out of position etc etc .
 
S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
that is one of your biggest leaks. These two hands show that you can't outplay 75-80 % of 2nl players ....these are the exact same leaks that most other 2nl players have.

They are afraid to bet there strong hands either trying to get tricky and letting opponents draw cheaply or thinking that they won't call bets. What are your stats ....when you say you play 5 hands , is that 5 out of 100 i.e a super nit so people realize you are only playing the premium hands preflop and refuse to payoff .

Why do you want to search for tougher opponents, all the better players are trying to find the weak players and take their money before the other regs get it. You don't make your profits off good players , you make your money from the bad players who over value their hands, can't fold their premiums , chase their draws without odds, play trashy hands. sall 3bets out of position etc etc .

Thanks for your reply. I don't know what my stats are because I don't have a HUD or tracker yet. I'm trying to decide between a couple right now. As for playing super nit, I don't think I do. I play a wide range of hands based on position at the table so I could play 5 hands in 2 rounds or 5 hands in 10. It all depends.

The reason why I want to find more experienced players is because of the challenge and to learn more about how to play certain circumstances that other beginners may not be able to emulate. At this point it's not about money. If I wanted to make money I wouldn't be playing a game for pennies. I'd be working at my real job or my fun job, both of which pay quite well. It's about acquiring a skill so that in future I can be a really good poker player. 😀
 
S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
I should also add here that recently I have been trying different ways to increase pot size with different opponents so I have been experimenting a bit. Something's have worked something's not so much lol.
 
Keith_MM

Keith_MM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Total posts
1,334
Awards
1
Chips
3
PT4 and HEM2 have month long trials, sign up for one and try it for a month then another month with the other.If your job pays so well , just try them for a week and buy the one you like the best.

Learn to beat the bad players and you will win enough to move up and play the next stake. there will still be the same types of players at the micro stakes, its just the proportion of good and bad players that will change. Since there are more good players each time you move up the game gets more aggressive and you'll need more skills to win as you move up. Earn your way up , if you just jump up stakes you will be killed and depressed and just give up .
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
They are afraid to bet there strong hands either trying to get tricky and letting opponents draw cheaply or thinking that they won't call bets.
This is fairly common among micro players. They see a strong hand and try to play a big pot with it, neglecting to consider whether their decisions are optimal or not.

For instance, they think about keeping the weak part of an opponent's range in by giving a free card, hoping he will improve enough to play and lose a big pot. They just see the scenario they want to see; the opponent improves to a second-best hand and stacks off.

But they neglect to consider that whether giving the free card is actually + or -EV depends on the full range of possible scenarios, including the disastrous one where the free card lets the opponent draw out and stack you when he would have folded to a bet. Yes, this isn't very likely, but neither is the one they're playing for.
 
S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
This is fairly common among micro players. They see a strong hand and try to play a big pot with it, neglecting to consider whether their decisions are optimal or not.

For instance, they think about keeping the weak part of an opponent's range in by giving a free card, hoping he will improve enough to play and lose a big pot. They just see the scenario they want to see; the opponent improves to a second-best hand and stacks off.

But they neglect to consider that whether giving the free card is actually + or -EV depends on the full range of possible scenarios, including the disastrous one where the free card lets the opponent draw out and stack you when he would have folded to a bet. Yes, this isn't very likely, but neither is the one they're playing for.

I do know that I've been having some trouble with this. This is what I have meant when I say I want to work on building pots. I'll try and post a hand here that I would like suggestions on. I have been feeling that my issue is I'm pushing villains off the pot too soon. Perhaps I'm work and just be happy with what I'm getting.
 
A

aznman08

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Total posts
357
Chips
0
What's a "bluff catcher" and how would I play it (see I'm new)? I did c/bet to try and push him off. It works quite well on passive players because they basically bet what they see or bluff a lot on scare cards. I'm learning that this isn't so with better more experienced players.

I'm not sure if this got answered. A bluff catcher is a hand that isn't the nuts or nowhere near the nuts. Basically its a hand that can only beat nothing when calling an opponents bet. You tend to see this at higher stakes with better skilled players.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
I have been feeling that my issue is I'm pushing villains off the pot too soon.
I'd say the opposite more common. Players focus too much on keeping opponents in pots. They bet small or give free cards in the hope that an opponent with the low end of his range will improve enough to play a big pot. This doesn't work very well because it doesn't happen very often, plus sometimes when it does happen, the opponent improves enough to win. It also doesn't get (full) value from opponents who would have called a (larger) bet.
 
S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
I'd say the opposite more common. Players focus too much on keeping opponents in pots. They bet small or give free cards in the hope that an opponent with the low end of his range will improve enough to play a big pot. This doesn't work very well because it doesn't happen very often, plus sometimes when it does happen, the opponent improves enough to win. It also doesn't get (full) value from opponents who would have called a (larger) bet.

Thanks again for your insight Arjonius. It is always appreciated. I've been reading some articles on a different sight regarding how to play different opponents depending on their aggression factor that seems to be helping me as well. Poker is such a fun game. So many variables and so much to learn :)
 
Last edited:
Top