You guys say dont bluff alot BUT....

After reading a lot of advice from veterans here at this forum I'm thinking seriously about toning down my bluffing a bit and focus more on value and reading players.

BUT...

Im still a little confused.

I watch poker TV and see Doyal Brunson and others bluffing like crazy, constantly pushing people around.

And Im SURE most of you have heard about the woman (Annette Obrestad) that won a WSOPE Bracelet without even looking at her cards!

She was placing bets solely based on her read of how weak her opponents are.

Sounds like to me she bluffed all the way to her bracelet!

Also I just read a post about this guy here on the forum that makes 50k a year.

He says he plays all TYPES of hands (not just tight hands)..and he does this because he has a fair read on his opponents...

And Im sure he isnt making 50k a year placing all his value on j7 or q3...

50k a year bluffing?

I hear you guys saying bluffing is just for thin value but this sounds like a lot of value to me.

So can someone finally put this issue to rest for me and tell me what the heck Im missing in this equation?

I want to be a good player, I really do. I want to be the best I can but...Why does it seem that the best players are the best bluffers??

The best players are sometimes the bigger bluffers, but I'd say a few things about that:
- Every media portrayal of poker overplays bluffing. It's seriously not as big as they make it seem. There are a few isolated cases like what you mentioned, but for the most part TV and movies really overdo it.
- Value bets are going to be more profitable than bluffs almost by definition. When you value bet, you have a chance to make money two ways: 1) Your opponent folds. 2) Your opponent calls and you have a better hand than him and win the showdown. When bluffing, in MOST cases (there are obvious exceptions), your opponent must FOLD for you to win! So this also means that you have to be a lot better at it for it to be worth your while.
- Bluffing isn't easy. Talent and a good feel for strength vs. weakness in opponents will help, but to be great at it, you need a lot of experience so you don't just have a feel on opponents, but for situations. The pros shown on TV are usually people who have spent years playing the game and interacting with people. Volume is a big part of getting good at anything.

I'll reiterate my first point, too: EVERYTHING ON TV IS UNREALISTIC POKER. Do NOT take cues from it, and if you are trying to improve your game, I'd suggest avoiding watching poker on TV except with the idea of watching it as PURE entertainment. Because that's what poker on TV is crafted for. They want suspense, excitement, big showdowns, and big emotions. These things are all going to come much more frequently with bluffs than more standard plays. This got a little lengthier than I meant it to, but that point bears repeating.

Learn to play 100% solid ABC poker, so that when you DO break the "rules," you do it successfully.

Most high stake poker games with players like Brunson in them will have a totally different dynamic than a small stake online game. You cant compare them. And the high stake tv games that are full of top players are not at all comparable to most online games.

Scourrge makes a lot of good points. Good advice. Take it IMO.

If you cannot win the hand at showdown, you have to have good reason to think you can get your opponent to lay down his hand by betting. You cant just say "Well, only a bluff will win so I bluff". In micros bluffing should be a very small part of your moves, and then only when you have reason to think it will work.

(You DO play micros??)

I'm assuming you're mostly talking about bluffing in cash games.

1. Scourge is right. They only show you the most exciting/interesting hands in TV poker, and cut all the boring parts which comprises like 90% of the actual hands. Tom Dwan in ring games actually plays a lot tighter than you think he does.

2. Pros are playing for thousands of dollars... up to several hundreds of thousands of dollars EACH HAND. They also have a lot of history playing against each other which is why bluffing in crazy scenarios works. You are playing for a $5 pot versus a bunch of unknown donks who will call you down with middle pair. Do you see the difference?

3. Annette Obrestad didn't win a WSOPE bracelet without looking at her cards. That would be absurd. She won a $4 buyin 180 SNG online against mostly fish... and in addition to her skill, luck played a very big part in her win. Additionally, she wasn't bluffing so much as she was reading her opponents tendencies and playing accordingly.

4. All this said, bluffing can be profitable in specific situations, even @ 2nl. You need to have a very good read on your opponent's range and what they are capable of laying down against your perceived range. Generally speaking though, bluffs only work against thinking players... not against fish who will call you down with any two. Fish comprise the majority of micro stakes poker, so the easiest way to profit at these levels comes from maximizing value when you are ahead.

The hand you see on TV are NOT representative of the way people play overall. For example, if a famous pro makes a big bluff, even if it's the only time all day, it's likely to be picked for showing because it's entertaining whether it succeeds or not.

Annette Obrestad won the first WSOPE ME, but the tournament she won not looking was an online MT SNG against opponents far below her caliber. And she did look once in a critical situation. Also, I've never seen info on how many times she tried before winning one.

As for winning while playing a range that includes trash, it doesn't mean the trash hands themselves are +EV, but rather that the person wins overall while playing said range.

Also, there are many different types of plays that can be called bluffs, but that doesn't mean they're all the same. Betting out on 3 streets with air in EP is very different from playing the same hands in position against a weak tight fit or fold-type opponent who will probably check-fold if he has less than top pair on the flop. The former is suicidal while the latter can be profitable if the player has the skill to pick his spots well.

Bluff only if you know/ think your opponent's hand is weak or at least not the nuts.

Bluffing for the sake of bluffing will get you broke.

Maybe you should kibitz annette_15.

She is a total nit when she needs to.

Firstly, TV is different. These poker players you're referring to know each player and their tendancies. They don't just bluff for no reason, they make well timed bluffs. Also I must point out, you're seeing edited footage meaning they have played many hands previously and the only good hands are shown which show bluffs/big pots etc. They don't show the nitty folds and all the crap and "normal" stuff that goes in to poker and the standard value bets and normal plays. The bluffs are just a select few hands, which are made to look like it's hand after hand, but it really is not.

You are also playing micros, people don't know hand ranges, they don't understand if they have two pair and someone over shoves that they should fold, they call because they have two pair so bluffing at the smallest stakes is pointless, it's not high stakes.


As for Annette comment, she did NOT win a bracelet not looking at their hold cards. It was some 180 man $4.00 MTT on pokerstars, nothing "fancy" at all. It was only to merely point out the power of positional play.


Bluffing is far over rated, to many player (most new comers) want to "bluff" and I'm unsure as to why. There is no reason to bluff at the micros, just value bet every hand and it wins. Bluffing should only be used agaisnt players who have a good understanding of poker not some donkey at the micros.

Just keep bluffing next to nothing and play ABC poker and slowly introduce bluffing but only agaisnt the correct players and in a good spot, not just any random spot which makes no sense (This is what happens a lot)

pokernutts said:

After reading a lot of advice from veterans here at this forum I'm thinking seriously about toning down my bluffing a bit and focus more on value and reading players.

BUT...

Im still a little confused.

I watch poker TV and see Doyal Brunson and others bluffing like crazy, constantly pushing people around.
Because that's what makes good TV - just like Paul Jr and Senior fighting for 5 minutes out of the day. And a successful bluff makes even better TV, so out of the 70 hours that was filmed you can be sure you are going to see that 2 minutes of a successful bluff. That's why it looks like it happens so often. Don't do it unless you understand that throwing a bunch of chips in the middle is the LEAST critical element of a bluff.

And Im SURE most of you have heard about the woman (Annette Obrestad) that won a WSOPE Bracelet without even looking at her cards!
Uh, no - that's not at all what happened.
"In July 2007, Obrestad won a $4 buy-in 180 person online sit-and-go where she claims to have played almost the entire tournament without looking at her cards. She claims she peeked at her cards once during the tournament, when she was faced with an all-in bet. She did this to show "just how important it is to play position and to pay attention to the players at the table."

She was placing bets solely based on her read of how weak her opponents are.

Sounds like to me she bluffed all the way to her bracelet!

Also I just read a post about this guy here on the forum that makes 50k a year.

He says he plays all TYPES of hands (not just tight hands)..and he does this because he has a fair read on his opponents...

And Im sure he isnt making 50k a year placing all his value on j7 or q3...

50k a year bluffing?

I hear you guys saying bluffing is just for thin value but this sounds like a lot of value to me.

So can someone finally put this issue to rest for me and tell me what the heck Im missing in this equation?

I want to be a good player, I really do. I want to be the best I can but...Why does it seem that the best players are the best bluffers??

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Well that may be true - the best players are the best bluffers - but they are not doing it "all the time". In fact part of what makes it work is the rest of the table respecting the fact you play good hands and, though capable, are not "always" prone to bluffing. The other part that makes it work is a read on your opponent and being in his head - knowing what he thinks you have along with what he is playing. Add to that telling a good story with the board you are given and you might be able to pull it off. It's not all that easy in lower stakes when all the macho, ego driven guys are so afraid they might get bluffed that they will call when they shouldn't.

You start adding a bunch of bluffs to your play and your VPiP is going to shoot up to a place that tells everyone (at least the ones paying attention) you have to be bluffing a certain amount of time and you are going to get challenged more often and made to prove your hand either through 3 barrelling or showdown.

It is probably best for you to focus on ABC poker for now.

well bluffing is a huge part of poker, IMO, but don't lose sight of the fact that when you watch poker on TV you are often seeing the most dramatic hands

one thing i will say is that it is easier to bluff good players ... bluffing bad players can be -EV

but when you bluff good players, your poker story better add up

thanks you guys for the solid advice. I really appreciate it.

Bluff in spots where you will have better.

Why don't you just try bluffing all the time, since all the pros only bluff, and see what happens.

bgomez89 said:

Why don't you just try bluffing all the time, since all the pros only bluff, and see what happens.

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Oh come on, be nice, haha.

tough love bro

Scourrge said:

Oh come on, be nice, haha.

Click to expand...

I'm thinking subtract one quality post - maybe he'll be nice next time.

As others have said, TV programmes exaggerate the amount of bluffing that goes on. They edit out the hands where players make a tight fold, because that`s not entertaining.

Lately, I have been playing mainly live tournaments at regional and national level, where the opponents consist of pros and advanced amateurs. Virtually none of those guys play more than 20 per cent of their hands until the late stages when blinds are high and/or play is short-handed.

Against good opponents, your should be aiming at a compromise. Don`t always play fit-or-fold. It makes you too easy to read and the opponents will give you no action when you have a hand. However, if you bluff often, you will be called.

Carefully consider your table image before attempting a bluff, especially in live play. I make a point of dressing conservatively and keeping a low profile, not talking loudly or making too many gestures or hand movements. This often convinces players that I am tighter than I really am and helps to make my bluffs more successful. Bluffing is associated with extrovert personality types. So, if you appear to be flamboyant, you are more likely to be suspected.

MediaBLITZ said:

I'm thinking subtract one quality post - maybe he'll be nice next time.

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What do you mean by "subtract one quality post"?

As you were - its a joke and not directed to you. So if I have to explain then it's obviously not funny.

MediaBLITZ said:

As you were - its a joke and not directed to you. So if I have to explain then it's obviously not funny.

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^^this just made it much more funny

MediaBLITZ said:

As you were - its a joke and not directed to you. So if I have to explain then it's obviously not funny.

Click to expand...

>.< Fair enough. Always did have trouble with the whole "interpreting-tone-over-the-internet" thing.

I occasionally catch someone bluffing. Sometimes I get sucked out by a bluffer. Usually big stacks bluff more, bulling the small stacks. Bluffing is a big part of the game. The hard part is recognizing a bluff.

I recomend mostly sticking to ABC poker. NEVER bluff an idiot. If do you want to bluff , try to have outs ie.. semi-bluff. Save barrelling for instances where you pick up hidden outs after a c-bet and have good implied odds. If I could have the buy-ins I lost learning this I would be very happy.

Pretty much exactly what everyone else has said. Just want to highlight something that hasn't been explicitly said.

You obviously are playing low limit fishy games. No one makes money bluffing fish in these types of games. In low limit fishy games you make money by catching cards and extracting value. Worry about bluffing when the caliber of play is better and it gets more difficult to extract value from your made hands.

pokernutts said:

After reading a lot of advice from veterans here at this forum I'm thinking seriously about toning down my bluffing a bit and focus more on value and reading players.

BUT...

Im still a little confused.

I watch poker TV and see Doyal Brunson and others bluffing like crazy, constantly pushing people around.

And Im SURE most of you have heard about the woman (Annette Obrestad) that won a WSOPE Bracelet without even looking at her cards!

She was placing bets solely based on her read of how weak her opponents are.

Sounds like to me she bluffed all the way to her bracelet!

Also I just read a post about this guy here on the forum that makes 50k a year.

He says he plays all TYPES of hands (not just tight hands)..and he does this because he has a fair read on his opponents...

And Im sure he isnt making 50k a year placing all his value on j7 or q3...

50k a year bluffing?

I hear you guys saying bluffing is just for thin value but this sounds like a lot of value to me.

So can someone finally put this issue to rest for me and tell me what the heck Im missing in this equation?

I want to be a good player, I really do. I want to be the best I can but...Why does it seem that the best players are the best bluffers??

Click to expand...

When you see pros bluff on TV you see that because it is entertaining. what you don't see is the same player sitting at the same table for five hours and play standard poker. Bluffing is def a part of poker but from a marketing stand point showing bluffs gets awesome ratings along with showing big hands and suck outs. A lot of TV poker shows are edited so you see the big hands cause no one cares so much about taking down blinds pre.
Pretty much the amount of bluffing shown on TV is a lot more than actually happens.