Would You Have Played This The Same Way?

I'm always very critical of my own game, whatever it is I'm playing.

Right now, my biggest leak in poker (or as I see it) is not being able to get away from big hands when I need to. Sometimes I win, and sometimes I lose, both ways it's big. The wins are fine obviously, but I got to get away from the big hands where I take losses. I have to figure out how to tell accurately, because if I fold more, I lose some of the big wins besides the losses.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I went with it, and you'll see the result (critique of pre and post-flop bets are welcome too):

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

CO ($2.03)
Hero (Button) ($4.62)
SB ($4.24)
BB ($3.16)
UTG ($0.92)
UTG+1 ($0.80)
MP1 ($1.48)
MP2 ($4.14)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A , A
UTG raises to $0.06, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.06, MP2 calls $0.06, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.24, MP1 calls $0.24, MP2 calls $0.24

Flop: ($1.25) J , J , 8 (4 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.60, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.60, MP2 calls $0.60

Turn: ($3.05) 6 (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $1.46, MP1 calls $0.58 (All-In), 1 fold

River: ($4.21) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $4.21 | Rake: $0.15

Results below:
BoomPlayer Replay

Yeah looks great, I'd play it the same. Post some more but don't include the results, you'll get better feedback without them

a hand history isn't going to get the most detailed analysis without some stats or reads on villains as this will affects villains ranges and tendencies on each street and how they are likely to react to different bet sizes or lines. THe less information you give us, the more general the analysis will be.

Cheers Micro, actually, I can do that right now with amazingly similar hands that happened on different tables within a minute of each other:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

Hero (UTG) ($5.26)
UTG+1 ($0.78)
MP1 ($0.86)
MP2 ($2.22)
MP3 ($0.97)
CO ($2.22)
Button ($1.42)
SB ($2.15)
BB ($2.44)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q , Q
Hero raises to $0.10, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.10, 6 folds

Flop: ($0.23) 7 , 10 , A (2 players)
Hero bets $0.06, MP1 calls $0.06

Turn: ($0.35) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $0.16, MP1 calls $0.16

River: ($0.67) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.32, MP1 calls $0.32

Total pot: $1.31 | Rake: $0.05



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

MP1 ($1.37)
MP2 ($1)
MP3 ($0.87)
CO ($2.07)
Button ($1.92)
SB ($3.57)
Hero (BB) ($4.67)
UTG ($3.28)
UTG+1 ($2.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q , Q
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.05, Button raises to $0.20, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.18, 1 fold, CO calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.63) 9 , A , 5 (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets $0.06, Hero calls $0.06, CO calls $0.06

Turn: ($0.81) 6 (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets $0.08, Hero calls $0.08, CO calls $0.08

River: ($1.05) 5 (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets $1, Hero folds, 1 fold

Total pot: $1.05 | Rake: $0.04

Keith_MM said:

a hand history isn't going to get the most detailed analysis without some stats or reads on villains as this will affects villains ranges and tendencies on each street and how they are likely to react to different bet sizes or lines. THe less information you give us, the more general the analysis will be.

Click to expand...

Well, the guy went AI with me on the hand in the OP, his calls pretty well speak volumes of his stats. With someone who the HUD shows is TAG, I don't have a problem backing off on big hands. I've probably folded Ks, Qs or Js more times than I want to think about because an over card came on the flop and he bet into me heavy. But it's one way to cut losses to the pre-flop action.

Normally, this confounded situation happens exactly as above, some guy who will call anything with garbage. Cripes, I don't even limp in from the button with what he had, let alone call the raises he did. I really believed he had a J after the flop and he was still calling.

QQ hand 1 ...pre fine , bet more on the flop (.16) , you are UTG and PFR and ace hits your range hard . cbet and represent the Ax hand , betting so small you are saying that you are scared of the Ace. decent openents would be reraising you there sensing your weakness and you'd have to fold. pot on the turn would be .55 and he'd have .60 left behind. you can bet .40 on turn and he'll either shove over since he'd only have .20 left behind if he called or call leaving a small river bet which he'd have to call as pot committed.. if he did fold his missed draws on river you still got more out of him while he was drawing .

hand 2 pre looks good, cbet the flop though having 3 bet pre to .30 unless one of the callers is a nit in which case i could check fold. check calling multiway multiple streets Ace high flops at 2nl is just going to bleed money as you are letting them out draw cheaply

Another perfect example of the shyte I can't get away from. I didn't 3-bet because of the number of people in the pot.

I left the result in this one, doesn't need an analysis cause you can't analyze Friggin' morons.

28 hands on villain:

VPIP 39
PFR 24
3B 0
CB 80

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

Button ($2.46)
Hero (SB) ($5.80)
BB ($2)
UTG ($0.73)
UTG+1 ($2.03)
MP1 ($4.63)
MP2 ($4.02)
CO ($2.02)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A , K
UTG raises to $0.04, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.04, CO raises to $0.06, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.05, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02

Flop: ($0.26) 4 , 3 , K (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.12, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, UTG raises to $0.67 (All-In), Hero calls $0.27

Turn: ($1.60) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($1.60) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $1.60 | Rake: $0.06

Results below:

Keith_MM said:

QQ hand 1 ...pre fine , bet more on the flop (.16) , you are UTG and PFR and ace hits your range hard . cbet and represent the Ax hand , betting so small you are saying that you are scared of the Ace. decent openents would be reraising you there sensing your weakness and you'd have to fold. pot on the turn would be .55 and he'd have .60 left behind. you can bet .40 on turn and he'll either shove over since he'd only have .20 left behind if he called or call leaving a small river bet which he'd have to call as pot committed.. if he did fold his missed draws on river you still got more out of him while he was drawing .

Click to expand...

Results below:
Villain had P-Ks

Keith_MM said:

hand 2 pre looks good, cbet the flop though having 3 bet pre to .30 unless one of the callers is a nit in which case i could check fold. check calling multiway multiple streets Ace high flops at 2nl is just going to bleed money as you are letting them out draw cheaply

Click to expand...

Results below:

lol ...@ QQ hand 2.. this is a perfect example of 2nl villains not betting because they are afraid that no one will call. so he bet small two streets and then bet big on river and gave you an easy fold.

last AK hand .... maniac min raises UTG his range is really wide and weak there and then theres callers. I'd have been tempted to 3bet pre to about .24 and would have been happy stacking off pre vs him, less keen if others call but hopefully the bigger 3bet isolates the maniac.

QQ hand bet more on each street post, if I'm going to cbet I never do less than 1/2 pot, I'd bet 60-70% of the pot on each street

Second QQ hand, fine he has a monster mostly when he takes that stupid line

AK hand - why do you say that this is an example of shyte you can't get away from? You played it fine and you had the best hand, nothing to get away from! I would be 3betting pre and then leading out though

OK, just had P-As on the button, fairly fresh to the table, UTG is a TAG player I have well over 200 hands on with the HUD, VPIP ~ 15, PFR ~ 10. I have just under my BI of $5, he is a little over $5.

He opens raise 3bb, 1 call and the rest fold to me, I 3-bet 10bb, SB and BB fold and he calls and other caller folds.

Flop is A-D 10 3 rainbow, Villain bets 4bbs, I raise to 25bbs, he calls. (I'm thinking he has a high pair, maybe flopped a set of 10s, and I don't think he would have called me pre- with P-3s. Either way, I'm in like Flynn)

Turn is 6D, he checks, I bet 50bbs, he calls. (WTF could he have I'm thinking, thinking back to his call pre)

River comes 2D, he checks, I bet 75bbs, he shoves, I call.

He turns over 10-8 of D for an A-high flush!!!!!

To say the least, I am friggin' gutted at this point. He then leaves and I get so pissed I shut down the game even with P-Qs at another table.

I mean, this isn't some donk I'm against, this is a guy who the HUD tells me knows what he's doing. But he called me Pre with junk, and then Post with 2nd pair and garbage kicker needing runner-runner to fill his flush.

Bad beats, happen all the time and water off a duck's back. Long drawn out periods of dead cards, the fine folks here have told me many times this would happen. Get beaten by a bigger pocket over-pair, acceptable. Bad downswings, will always happen. It isn't the money, what I've lost over the past 18,000 hands is less than an hour pay. But this is outrageous getting beaten so many times by people (donks AND TAG players) calling with junk is just killing any confidence I have.

I need a break from the game.

<<rant off>>

Peace guys, and thank you kindly for all your advice and comments above.

Jamie

SeaRun said:

Bad beats, happen all the time and water off a duck's back. Long drawn out periods of dead cards, the fine folks here have told me many times this would happen. Get beaten by a bigger pocket over-pair, acceptable. Bad downswings, will always happen. It isn't the money, what I've lost over the past 18,000 hands is less than an hour pay. But this is outrageous getting beaten so many times by people (donks AND TAG players) calling with junk is just killing any confidence I have.

Click to expand...

Poker, at least at the micro levels, isn't about the money. It's also not about winning - not primarily anyway. Assuming your goal is to become a player with a decent win rate, it's about learning to make more good decisions more consistently.

Some of this learning doesn't directly involve the cards, odds. etc. Like improving your ability to continue playing your game when the cards are falling poorly.

Also like learning to be more detached from your BR. Assuming you follow decent guidelines, the only times you need to pay attention to it are when you fall near your minimum number of buyins (I wouldn't be concerned about this at 2nl since it's the lowest level anyway), and when your BR is approach enough to move up (and even then, only if you intend to move up).

Arjonius said:

Poker, at least at the micro levels, isn't about the money. It's also not about winning - not primarily anyway. Assuming your goal is to become a player with a decent win rate, it's about learning to make more good decisions more consistently.

Some of this learning doesn't directly involve the cards, odds. etc. Like improving your ability to continue playing your game when the cards are falling poorly.

Also like learning to be more detached from your BR. Assuming you follow decent guidelines, the only times you need to pay attention to it are when you fall near your minimum number of buyins (I wouldn't be concerned about this at 2nl since it's the lowest level anyway), and when your BR is approach enough to move up (and even then, only if you intend to move up).

Click to expand...

Agreed on all points!!!

However, while it's not directly about money and winning, someone would have to be a bit strange to dump everything at $5 NL, reload their Roll and move up a level or 2, right? So, in a way, yes, money and winning does have a bit to do with it. As you kind of implied in your last paragraph, you move up when you've won enough at the lowest level to increase your BR by enough to move up and continue good BRM (had to reread that to make sure it made sense)

I just posted in another thread Re: Micro stakes the other day: "It trains you to accept bad beats are going to happen, and also to be numb to them". It's like history or calculus in high school, nobody gives a fiddler's F*** about them in school, but they are training you indirectly for the future.

Someone mentioned the other day in a thread that most times when he's posting a hand for analysis, as soon as he sees it reviewed, he sees where he went wrong. But there's my problem, and the reason I posted the OP in the first place; I don't see anything wrong with the play, outside of maybe tweaking a bet size or something as suggested above. I don't see any glaring errors in my play most of the time.

So is it just me can never see these coming, or is it a common problem more people have come to accept?

Let's face it, it's been well written that a decent growth in BR from cash games is 8-10 bbs/100 (obviously over a long period). So using that rule for just that one hand this morning, it's going to take me close to 3000 hands to recover from that loss (assuming no more big losing pots). So if one of those hands happen every 2900 hands played, you never get ahead.

Am I getting too analytical? Like I said above, the quantity of money means squat, it's the principle and doing my best to improve play. Maybe I should just say "Shag it, suck it up buttercup" and move ahead with the game.

EDIT:

Last week, I loaded some more money into my account to play some MicroMillions events without touching my cash game BR. Right now, my confidence is so low, I have no intention of playing anything. I might as well roll up a $50 and light a Montecristo #2 or a RASS with it.

So, I'm hoping this brutal stretch has come to an end. Don't want to get my hopes up, but at least i'm feeling better about things after a short session after supper.

First hand at this table:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

BB ($2.92)
UTG ($1.57)
UTG+1 ($0.95)
MP1 ($2.93)
MP2 ($1.59)
Hero (CO) ($5)
Button ($5.98)
SB ($5.16)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K , K
3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.06, Hero (poster) raises to $0.20, 3 folds, MP2 calls $0.14

Flop: ($0.43) 6 , 3 , A (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.20, MP2 calls $0.20

Turn: ($0.83) K (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.80, MP2 raises to $1.19 (All-In), Hero calls $0.39

River: ($3.21) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $3.21 | Rake: $0.11

Results below:


A minute or 2 after that one, on another table:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

BB ($2.05)
Hero (UTG) ($4.98)
UTG+1 ($2.34)
MP1 ($1.47)
MP2 ($2)
MP3 ($3.30)
CO ($1.60)
Button ($3.32)
SB ($5.06)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 10 , 10
Hero raises to $0.08, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.08, 5 folds, BB calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.27) 10 , 5 , 10 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.12, 1 fold, BB raises to $0.33, Hero raises to $0.66, BB calls $0.33

Turn: ($1.59) 9 (2 players)
BB bets $1.31 (All-In), Hero calls $1.31

River: ($4.21) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $4.21 | Rake: $0.15

Results below:

And shortly after that on a different table again:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

UTG+1 ($3.51)
MP1 ($1.51)
MP2 ($0.87)
MP3 ($0.74)
CO ($3.11)
Button ($0.96)
Hero (SB) ($6.93)
BB ($5.87)
UTG ($6.21)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A , 10
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, CO calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.01, BB checks

Flop: ($0.08) A , 10 , 4 (4 players)
Hero bets $0.12, 2 folds, CO calls $0.12

Turn: ($0.32) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.30, CO calls $0.30

River: ($0.92) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $0.44, CO calls $0.44

Total pot: $1.80 | Rake: $0.06

Results below:
**Villain had A-3 Suited

So those 3 hands alone and up 243 bbs, for the session of 93 hands, everything else worked out close to even. Unfortunately, still down 440 bbs for the day.

Looking at my history, I'm going to change my BI. I've been buying in at full $5, but almost never do I win a pot to justify having that much on the table. Looking back at my history of all nearly 20K hands I've played, I've won more than $3 only 3 times, with the biggest win being $3.97, while I've lost more than $2.50 10 times, with the biggest 3 being $4.97, $4.40 and $3.86. Kind of unbalanced, eh?

Here's the graph of the 1000 hands I played today:

SeaRun said:

Agreed on all points!!!

However, while it's not directly about money and winning, someone would have to be a bit strange to dump everything at $5 NL, reload their Roll and move up a level or 2, right? So, in a way, yes, money and winning does have a bit to do with it.

Click to expand...

Of course it would be strange. But so what? What I posted is based on an implied goal that your hypothetical player obviously doesn't share, namely moving up in a planned, decently thought out manner.

As you kind of implied in your last paragraph, you move up when you've won enough at the lowest level to increase your BR by enough to move up and continue good BRM (had to reread that to make sure it made sense)

Click to expand...

Being ready to move up involves two main considerations: (1) having enough game including the mental and emotional aspects, and (2) having enough BR. When you achieve the former, you may well already have enough BR. At worst, it won't take very long to build it up. And with enough game and BR, you will at least hold your own at the higher level. Otoh, if you have the BR but not the game to move up, you should expect your BR to shrink until BRM obliges you to drop back down.

What I'm saying is that having enough game to move up is far more important than having enough BR. You can move up an win with a small BR. While this doesn't mean it's a good idea, moving up with an adequate roll but inadequate game is clearly worse.

Note that I'm not talking about taking shots, which can be part of determining if you have enough game.

If you accept that game is (much) more important than BR, then where should your attention be focused? Clearly, on your game. You only have to focus on having enough buyins when you've determined your game is ready for you to move up, and even then, only if your BR isn't already enough.

Someone mentioned the other day in a thread that most times when he's posting a hand for analysis, as soon as he sees it reviewed, he sees where he went wrong. But there's my problem, and the reason I posted the OP in the first place; I don't see anything wrong with the play, outside of maybe tweaking a bet size or something as suggested above. I don't see any glaring errors in my play most of the time.

Click to expand...

Have you considered the possibility that your self-evaluation isn't on the mark? What if your play of the kind of hands you're posting about isn't as big a leak as you think? You wouldn't be the first person to over-prioritize big hands and/or big pots.

Let's face it, it's been well written that a decent growth in BR from cash games is 8-10 bbs/100 (obviously over a long period). So using that rule for just that one hand this morning, it's going to take me close to 3000 hands to recover from that loss (assuming no more big losing pots). So if one of those hands happen every 2900 hands played, you never get ahead.

Your long-term win rate includes big pots you lose. They're not a separate category that you recover from.

Am I getting too analytical? Like I said above, the quantity of money means squat, it's the principle and doing my best to improve play. Maybe I should just say "Shag it, suck it up buttercup" and move ahead with the game.

Click to expand...

While the money means nothing in terms of your personal finances, I would have to guess it does mean something to you at some other level, like mentally and/or emotionally.

Fwiw, when I started out, I used to watch my BR like a hawk even though it was a meaningless amount for me IRL. In retrospect, would I say this was in any way productive or helpful? Although it wasn't among the worst things I did, my answer is definitely not.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Thanks for the response today Arjonius. I've just started 4 tables and sat for a few to read your points. I'll respond later, I have some points to make / clarify.

In the meantime, here's another example of what is really getting me down.

It's not a bad beat, I was dominated preflop it turns out, but Holy Crow, how long does this pain go on?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

Button ($3.13)
SB ($1.44)
BB ($2.40)
UTG ($2.08)
UTG+1 ($1.13)
MP1 ($4.96)
MP2 ($1.98)
MP3 ($2.59)
Hero (CO) ($2.41)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J , Q
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.20) 8 , 9 , 10 (3 players)
SB bets $0.10, MP2 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $0.96, Hero raises to $2.35 (All-In), MP2 calls $0.96 (All-In)

Turn: ($4.14) 10 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($4.14) J (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $4.14 | Rake: $0.14

Results below:

You were dominated pre (only just) but it's still a beat, you were ahead when the money went in on the flop. This hand shouldn't get you down, you played it well and that's what's important, not the result.

Arjonius said:

Of course it would be strange. But so what? What I posted is based on an implied goal that your hypothetical player obviously doesn't share, namely moving up in a planned, decently thought out manner.


Being ready to move up involves two main considerations: (1) having enough game including the mental and emotional aspects, and (2) having enough BR. When you achieve the former, you may well already have enough BR. At worst, it won't take very long to build it up. And with enough game and BR, you will at least hold your own at the higher level. Otoh, if you have the BR but not the game to move up, you should expect your BR to shrink until BRM obliges you to drop back down.

What I'm saying is that having enough game to move up is far more important than having enough BR. You can move up an win with a small BR. While this doesn't mean it's a good idea, moving up with an adequate roll but inadequate game is clearly worse.

Note that I'm not talking about taking shots, which can be part of determining if you have enough game.

If you accept that game is (much) more important than BR, then where should your attention be focused? Clearly, on your game. You only have to focus on having enough buyins when you've determined your game is ready for you to move up, and even then, only if your BR isn't already enough.

Click to expand...

Agreed on all, especially the bolded statement. My thoughts are if I have the game (all aspects) to build sufficient BR only from the game (without depositing more), then a move up is acceptable. Right now, I have just under 40 BIs @ 0.01/0.02, and a move up will be considered when and only when I have a min of 40 BIs at the next level, and then so on. If there's one thing this stretch has taught me, it's that when higher level players preach BRM, they aren't exaggerating when they stress the number of BIs you need.

Have you considered the possibility that your self-evaluation isn't on the mark? What if your play of the kind of hands you're posting about isn't as big a leak as you think? You wouldn't be the first person to over-prioritize big hands and/or big pots.

Click to expand...

Yes, quite possible, but when I look back at performance over nearly any quantity of hands, the biggest % of losses by far are hands such as I've posted above. So if those hands are the vast majority of total losses, shouldn't I take a serious look at that first?

Your long-term win rate includes big pots you lose. They're not a separate category that you recover from.

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Yes, I understand that. My point was if losses as above are a normal and frequent thing, it makes reaching the 8-10 goal even harder to attain.

While the money means nothing in terms of your personal finances, I would have to guess it does mean something to you at some other level, like mentally and/or emotionally.

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Yes, it has significant meaning at the mental level, and somewhat emotional as well. When I'm playing poker, I don't have a photographic memory, so stats and size of BR comparative to when I started the session, or compared to size 3 days ago, or whatever, is all I have to go on for a measurement of performance over the given period. There've been sessions I thought I played well, only to be even, and sessions where I thought I'd played well, only to be down a few hundred bbs.

While it's only micro stakes for pennies, I'm trying to ignore the actual value of the money I'm playing for and look at it an bbs and BIs only. I think succeeding at that will better prepare me for a move up.

Fwiw, when I started out, I used to watch my BR like a hawk even though it was a meaningless amount for me IRL. In retrospect, would I say this was in any way productive or helpful? Although it wasn't among the worst things I did, my answer is definitely not.

Click to expand...

I think that's relative. If you had an original BI of 100 BIs at a level, no, it's not that important. But when you're dealing with an original BR of 20 BIs or less and you're in a downswing of a few 000 hands, it becomes very important.

Now, all that being said, here's a graph of yesterday's play:



The day started out as the days previous did, major losses. At about the 500 hand mark I reached bottom for the day (down ~ 300 bbs in 500 hands), which was the hand I posted in post # 16 above. Then the cards changed for me. Over the next 250 hands, I gained ~ 400 bbs, a wicked run of cards with gains only limited by the chips the players had on the table in those 4 big hands. The rest of the day was on a slow decline, but that's an expected cooler IMHO. The success for me was from hand 500 to the end, the biggest loss I had was 21 bbs where I had P-Js and lost to a straight.

Now, is a graph like I posted here common during a bad period? I know bad beats, coolers, downswings, etc happen to everyone with varying intensity and frequency, but is it common to lose 300 bbs in 500 hands?

One note on the performance yesterday, it would have been worse if I had kept BI @ $5. I lowered it to $2.50 and while it kept losses in bad hands to a minimum, it didn't affect my gains, and I believe in the 4 big hands I won after the 500 hand mark, I had the other player AI, so more on the table for me wouldn't have made a difference.

Again, to all, and as always, thanks for reading, posting and for your advice.

Jamie

micromachine said:

You were dominated pre (only just) but it's still a beat, you were ahead when the money went in on the flop. This hand shouldn't get you down, you played it well and that's what's important, not the result.

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Thanks Micro. That's one of the things that gets me down (and admittedly happens to everyone) is when played will you still get smoked. Occasionally is acceptable, to a point, but after a while it's like beating your head against a wall ............. it feels so good when you stop.

SeaRun said:

Yes, quite possible, but when I look back at performance over nearly any quantity of hands, the biggest % of losses by far are hands such as I've posted above. So if those hands are the vast majority of total losses, shouldn't I take a serious look at that first?

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Look at big losses first, NP. But you said you've seen that in most times, you play them okay. So I can only assume you have looked at them and found that the large majority of your losses were unavoidable. If so, then it follows that continuing to focus on these hands has less upside than finding and addressing other leaks that are costing you more.

Yes, I understand that. My point was if losses as above are a normal and frequent thing, it makes reaching the 8-10 goal even harder to attain.

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Losing a buyin on a hand is a meaningless blip on your long-term earnings curve. Losing days are basically meaningless too provided your long-term trend is upward. That's what's important. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Yes, it has significant meaning at the mental level, and somewhat emotional as well. When I'm playing poker, I don't have a photographic memory, so stats and size of BR comparative to when I started the session, or compared to size 3 days ago, or whatever, is all I have to go on for a measurement of performance over the given period. There've been sessions I thought I played well, only to be even, and sessions where I thought I'd played well, only to be down a few hundred bbs.

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Again, don't sweat the small stuff. Say you win a few buyins over a three-day period vs losing the same amount. Does this reflect a difference in your ability level? Note I said your ability level, not how you played.

What I'm saying is that using win-loss to measure short-term performance is largely a waste of time because in the short term, the link between how you play and the change in your BR is tenuous. So what important aspect of your performance does your BR actually measure in a short period?

I think that's relative. If you had an original BI of 100 BIs at a level, no, it's not that important. But when you're dealing with an original BR of 20 BIs or less and you're in a downswing of a few 000 hands, it becomes very important.

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Are you saying you'd think and act differently if you had a 100 BI BR? It would be easy enough to find out by increasing your BR to that size. Reset your guideline to move up from 50 BI to 110, so it stays at 10 BI more than your current BR. And see if your mental approach changes or not. If not, fine. If it does, then you've learned something. How can you lose?

Now, all that being said, here's a graph of yesterday's play:

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Don't sweat the small stuff. What can you reasonably expect to learn from your one-day graph that's meaningful / helpful? Unless you have a good answer, why look at it?

Now, is a graph like I posted here common during a bad period? I know bad beats, coolers, downswings, etc happen to everyone with varying intensity and frequency, but is it common to lose 300 bbs in 500 hands?

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Probably more common than you think. If you were playing one FR table, it would take up to 10 hours to play 500 hands. Does losing 3 BI in 10 hours seem particularly uncommon? Sure, 6max takes less time, but it's also more volatile.

One note on the performance yesterday, it would have been worse if I had kept BI @ $5. I lowered it to $2.50 and while it kept losses in bad hands to a minimum, it didn't affect my gains, and I believe in the 4 big hands I won after the 500 hand mark, I had the other player AI, so more on the table for me wouldn't have made a difference.

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Four hands is a miniscule sample, so drawing any conclusions from it is useless. It can be argued that you're more likely to take stacks from fish, and that fish are more likely to be playing short stacks. However, becoming one of the better players at any given level involves more than just beating the fish. And if fish are more likely to buy in short, what does that suggest about you? That at least one part of your game is fishy.

If you're buying in short to limit your losses, even if that's not the sole reason, you're "scared money". In the long run (i.e. for your poker career), the sooner you start desensitizing yourself to this feeling / attitude instead of catering to it, the better.

Honestly, I would have been more hesitant to continue raising when MP1 and MP2 were so easy to call my .60 raise. Out of the two of them, I would have imagined one of them had the jack....the jacks on the board would have scared me enough to keep me from raising after that.

You made the decision that made you a profit so I can't knock it. But I do believe it was a risky move.....after all, AA is still just a pair....there are SO MANY THINGS that beat AA so I try to play AA very conservatively.

I think your initial raise of .30 was a little low. If it were a little higher maybe some of the villains would have folded preflop.