Why we make the decisions we do in on-line tournaments

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Dan Lucas

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I am hoping to give and get some insight on why we make the decisions we do in specific cases during on-line tournaments.
My first case is this:

It was the CC Friday freeroll. Payout is 45th place qnd we are at 107 players. Blinds are 75/150 and due to go up to 100/200 in 2 minutes. I have 1290 chips. I am utg+2 and get dealt K J offsuit. I figure with my stack, this hand is pretty decent and everyone at the table is playing solid. I don't think I have enough fold equity with blinds increasing shortly, So I go all-in. I get folders to the big blind, who has 2700 chips. He shows pocket 6's.

I lost hand in case you are interested, board bricked out.
If I was Big blind, I probably would have folded the 6's. If I lose hand, I still have 18 bb. If I lose, I am down to 9. For me, I think I would have waited for a better spot, especially since I am still in a good position to make a deep run.

What plays would you have made in both my situation and big blind, and why? Remember, this is on-line so you probably have 30 seconds. I believe that in this case, the decision making process is more important than the result.
 
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HowS

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I would made the same play as you. And as the villain, I would probably made the call with pocket 6s. With BB going up to 200 in 2 minutes, he would only have 13 bigs.

Imo both played correctly given the position and hands.
 
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ph_il

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It was the CC Friday freeroll. Payout is 45th place qnd we are at 107 players. Blinds are 75/150 and due to go up to 100/200 in 2 minutes. I have 1290 chips. I am utg+2 and get dealt K J offsuit. I figure with my stack, this hand is pretty decent and everyone at the table is playing solid. I don't think I have enough fold equity with blinds increasing shortly, So I go all-in. I get folders to the big blind, who has 2700 chips. He shows pocket 6's.

I lost hand in case you are interested, board bricked out.
If I was Big blind, I probably would have folded the 6's. If I lose hand, I still have 18 bb. If I lose, I am down to 9. For me, I think I would have waited for a better spot, especially since I am still in a good position to make a deep run.

What plays would you have made in both my situation and big blind, and why? Remember, this is on-line so you probably have 30 seconds. I believe that in this case, the decision making process is more important than the result.
Well, if I was in the BB, I would probably make the same call.

I can see that you're a very short stack and know that you are likely shoving a fairly wide range UTG. Even if I gave you a shove range of 20%, I still have just under 50% equity vs your range. As a short stack myself that's soon to become even shorter when the blinds go up, I'm happy to take a flip here to increase my stack. In fact, I'd be happy getting in vs a tighter range if I was getting at least 40% equity. 18 BBs is not a big stack at all and with 62 players to bust out before the money, I don't think I can sit and wait for a "better spot" with my stack size which is going to drop to 13.5 BBs very soon. This is as good of a spot as any to try and increase my stack.

Also, if I think that you're a competent player and you are taking into consideration the increasing blinds, I might expect you to shove with an even wider range. Especially if given your position and that you're going to be BB in the next to hands when the blinds have gone up. So, if I think you're capable of shoving a much wider range from UTG2, I'm even more willing to call even more.

Please keep in mind that this is what I would do in the SB in this situation. I don't know how the SB was playing or the table dynamics or whatever. For all we know, SB could be thinking 'ooh! pair! I call!' without much else.

In your situation, it's a super easy shove w/ just under 9 BBs. You're also in a desperation mode with blinds going up, so I probably would've tried to find a spot way before this to get my money in. But if that wasn't possible, then this is just as good of a spot to get in.

In all honesty, neither of you made bad decisions. Both are very standard plays.
 
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Dan Lucas

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Here is the situation. It is a PokerSchool School pass freeroll. Blinds are 50/100, and I am Hi-jack. 9 handed table. Utg+1 and utg+3 are sitting out. UTG folds, utg+2 calls, I have 2635 in chips with 66, and I decided just to call with so many to act behind, and table has been quiet. Cutoff just came to table with late registration, and 1500 chips. He goes all-in. Button has 3924 chips and has been pretty conservative, calls. Sb and BB both fold, and utg+2 folds. With 25 big blinds, I decide to fold. Next blind is 75/150 and is still 5 minutes away. Do you think I thought it through correctly?
 
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Well being relatively new, and trying to start to analyze hands and learn let me give my 2 cents. I really respect ohshoots ideas and if I get close then good. Lol I would have folded also. My reasoning being.. the new guy we have no idea, could be AA or air trying to start a stack. The conservative guy is what worries me, he probably has a PP or big ace or Broadway. With there being more , larger PP than what you have smaller PP your either a big dog or at best a 60/40 edge(if I remember correctly 2 overs to a PP is 60/40dog). With 25 BB left I would look for a better spot. If I am wrong in my thinking someone please let.Me.know so I can.learn too. Lol. GL.. Tal
 
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Dan Lucas

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Played the FRC freeroll today. Blinds were 75/150, and I was down to 2100 chips. Got a big stack(5500 chips) early raise with 525, I got dealt AQ clubs, and figured I better shove. My reasoning was that he has raised to steal previously, and a hand like A J or worse was definitely in his range. Does my reasoning sound logical here?
 
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Dan Lucas

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Easy decision here. I had 6 big blinds left, everyone folded to me on the button, and I get dealt Q 10. I am 10 away from the bubble. Sb has 7 big blinds, BB is big stack at table with about 35 big blinds. I figure my Q 10 is good enough for a shove with only 2 players left to act. So I go all-in, sb folds and BB calls, and turns over K 8. I hit on the turn and lost on the river, but I think my reasoning was solid, and I just got unlucky. What do you think?
 
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Dan Lucas

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Here is an example of a bad decision. CC freeroll, down to 23 players and I have about 1600 chips with blinds 200/400. I was Utg+1, and got Q 7. I figured I should fold and wait for a better spot, but I should have shoved with a paint card and took my chances. Whether I win hand or not, the correct poker decision is probably to shove there. I waited and got 22 on the button and shoved. Got called by BB who had 5 10. Flop was 10 8 10. Busted. I don't know if I learned anything from this, but we'll see next tourney. What do the rest of you think about my analysis?
 
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Dan Lucas

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I'll run through my thought processes here. CC freeroll, I was down to 11 big blinds, in sb and got dealt 88. Utg with 4 bb goes all-in. 2 callers, both have 20+ bb. I think about going all-in myself, but then decided that pocket 8's is pretty weak 4 ways, so I fold. Of course, 8 on the flop. Run out was 2 8 Q on flop, 5 on turn, 10 on river. UTG shows 5 6, other players show A 7 and A 4. I just never thought that even in a freeroll players would be that weak. Do you think my reasoning was sound or should I have gambled seeing it was the freeroll?
 
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tcdukesdood

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I would do the same as you, but try to go all in earlier in game to steal blinds!
 
SBEP

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Mb a min raise would have been better, and if u get hit with a 3bet either flat or fold, i would not have shoved KJ in that situation, but i guess u felt pretty good about shoving them coz u had a good sense about the players on your table and their shoving range, if the 66`s were shorter stacj then u, well i guess its a bit light shove, but also good shove, pair of 6`s in to one hand its always a shove, check shove/fold chart :D but i would not have shoved with KJ, sorry to many bad memories to be doing that :D
 
MikeShayne

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I'll run through my thought processes here. CC freeroll, I was down to 11 big blinds, in sb and got dealt 88. Utg with 4 bb goes all-in. 2 callers, both have 20+ bb. I think about going all-in myself, but then decided that pocket 8's is pretty weak 4 ways, so I fold. Of course, 8 on the flop. Run out was 2 8 Q on flop, 5 on turn, 10 on river. UTG shows 5 6, other players show A 7 and A 4. I just never thought that even in a freeroll players would be that weak. Do you think my reasoning was sound or should I have gambled seeing it was the freeroll?

20+ bb likely call with any two cards and check it down to eliminate short stack. Shove the 8-8.
 
milencenov

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I am hoping to give and get some insight on why we make the decisions we do in specific cases during on-line tournaments.
My first case is this:

It was the CC Friday freeroll. Payout is 45th place qnd we are at 107 players. Blinds are 75/150 and due to go up to 100/200 in 2 minutes. I have 1290 chips. I am utg+2 and get dealt K J offsuit. I figure with my stack, this hand is pretty decent and everyone at the table is playing solid. I don't think I have enough fold equity with blinds increasing shortly, So I go all-in. I get folders to the big blind, who has 2700 chips. He shows pocket 6's.

I lost hand in case you are interested, board bricked out.
If I was Big blind, I probably would have folded the 6's. If I lose hand, I still have 18 bb. If I lose, I am down to 9. For me, I think I would have waited for a better spot, especially since I am still in a good position to make a deep run.

What plays would you have made in both my situation and big blind, and why? Remember, this is on-line so you probably have 30 seconds. I believe that in this case, the decision making process is more important than the result.

1. To answer the main question of this thread: because we are humans and not bots !

2. Now, I will do the math of your situation:

You shove for 1290.

I suppose the 2700 of your opponent are net amount, and do not include the BB he just placed for this hand.

So, the pot after your allin is: 1290 + 75 + 150 = 1515.

He already put BB for 150, so the "price" to call is: 1290 - 150 = 1140.

He needs to "invest" 1140 for a "return" of 1515.

Pot odds = 1140 / (1140 + 1515) = 1140 / 2655 = 42.94% ~= 43%.

66 need just 43% chance to win to justify call.

66 is big favourite against weak A, weak K, weak Q, etc. (like A-2 to A-6).

66 is slight favourite at 57-43 against any higher non-paired off-suit cards.

66 is mediocre favourite at 53-47 against any higher non-paiered suited cards.

66 is big favourite against 4 pairs (82-18) and is big underdog against 8 pairs (18-82). The distribution is 33/67. If you use it to weight the average EV of pair-versus-pair - it is approximately 40/60.

Given the facts, the call is +EV and thus justified. The small deficiency in pair-to-pair allin is largely off-set by the big +EV against the non-paired hands.

Also, you are small stack and your opponent only risks 40% of his stack, while you risk elimination.

So, he can afford the call. And also, he is not affraid of your hand, because given your stack, you would push with anything playable...
 
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Your shove is correct. Their call is correct. They know you're in a spot you have to shove less premium hands. You both played well, unfortunate for you. You have to push or you get blinded out. He's getting good odds with antes for a small/mid pair against a desperate shover.
 
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Dan Lucas

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I appreciate all the feedback. That is what I was hoping to see here, not if a decision was right or wrong, but that we thought it through and that not everyone makes their decisions the same way. I hope that those viewing and contributing are getting the same out of it as me.
 
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Dan Lucas

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I thought I might add a bad decision here. We were in the money, and I had 5 10 in the big blind. Cut-off called and I checked. Flop came 5 9 J, and cut-off bet minimum. I called and turn came Q. He bet min again, and instead of folding bottom pair I got stubborn and called. 4 on river and he bet min again. I called again and he showed Q 7. I was ahead on the flop, but I should have just folded. Sometimes, it is better to fold garbage instead of hoping opponent is bluffing.
 
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I would not have raised with KJ there, too many people think AX is call worthy in freerolls. Depending on your play, I probably would've called you with the 6's in that position.
 
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Dan Lucas

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Here is a pretty standard example of an either/or decision. I was short stack with about 5bb in the freeroll. I had Ah 8c in the BB. The big stack with about 45bb limped. Everyone folded to me and I decided that I didn't want to make a decision on the flop, so I shoved. Big stack called and showed his Js 6s. I thought about seeing a flop, because blinds increase slowly and with no antes, I might have still had a chance. Flop came A 6 9. If I had limped here, a shove may have got the fold, but opponent was playing garbage so probably calls with bottom pair. Cards ran out Jh 6c. For historical purposes, A8 for me has been a losing hand every time I play it, so I really thought about check and fold on flop. Any thoughts?
 
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Dan Lucas

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Made a poker move, but really thought about a fold here. 6 big blinds, I am in small blind and get KJ clubs. Everyone folds to me. Big blind has 19 big blinds. I shove instead of folding. After going in the can for a minute, BB calls and shows pocket 6's. Board bricks out and I am out of the money. I don't think any of you would fold there, but the way I was running in the tourney, I really thought of folding here.
 
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Here is a pretty standard example of an either/or decision. I was short stack with about 5bb in the freeroll. I had Ah 8c in the BB. The big stack with about 45bb limped. Everyone folded to me and I decided that I didn't want to make a decision on the flop, so I shoved. Big stack called and showed his Js 6s. I thought about seeing a flop, because blinds increase slowly and with no antes, I might have still had a chance. Flop came A 6 9. If I had limped here, a shove may have got the fold, but opponent was playing garbage so probably calls with bottom pair. Cards ran out Jh 6c. For historical purposes, A8 for me has been a losing hand every time I play it, so I really thought about check and fold on flop. Any thoughts?
Why are you letting yourself get down to 5 BBs?

Anyway, your shove is fine because it's giving you the best value for your hand when your opponent calls the shove. Also, with only 5 BBs, you can't afford to limp/fold hands (if you had missed the flop).
 
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ph_il

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Made a poker move, but really thought about a fold here. 6 big blinds, I am in small blind and get KJ clubs. Everyone folds to me. Big blind has 19 big blinds. I shove instead of folding. After going in the can for a minute, BB calls and shows pocket 6's. Board bricks out and I am out of the money. I don't think any of you would fold there, but the way I was running in the tourney, I really thought of folding here.
Why would even consider folding with 6 BBs in a BvB situation?

Your shove was fine. Just because you lost the hand doesn't mean you made a mistake in your decision.
 
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Dan Lucas

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Finally got what I deserved making the correct decision. Short stacked utg and get KQ off. I shove and sb calls and shows pocket AA. Board bricks out like it should, and I am out. But I felt o.k., because I was playing bad and should have run into a big hand in that spot. I should never have even got that far in this tourney, so going out 10 spots from the money felt right.
 
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I was thinking for a second that the call with pocket 6s was rather optimistic, to put it kindly. It is one thing to shove with sixes, but calling with sixes is a different thing. But then I went back and reread the original post. Upon second thought, I don't think I can fault either player for the way they played the hand, given the blinds and the stack sizes. They say you have to win races to win tourneys. I've seen bigger shoves with worse hands and I have also seen much bigger calls made by players holding less.
 
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Dan Lucas

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The correct decision against a bad decision and result is knocked out of tournament. I was in early position with 7 bb and got dealt A 7. I went all-in and got called in 2 spots, button with 15 bb and BB with about 20. Flop came 2 3 4 rainbow, and BB bet 40% pot. Button folded and BB showed K 3. Correct decision was my shove, wrong was BB. Turn and river came 9 9. Just shows how bad decisions can payoff in freerolls.
 
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Dan Lucas

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Just an interesting question for you. I was short stacked, about 6bb on the button, and 3 away from the bubble. I had Q 9 off, a limp from big stack in cut-off and the other short stack with 4 bb in big blind. I decided to fold, figuring that bb shoves, and didn't want to be in a 3 way pot. Just for the record, the board came 8 5 10 diamonds, J hearts and 2 clubs. Cut-off showed pocket 5's, bb showed 6 10 off. And I did make it to the money.
 
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