Why are suited pocket cards valued so highly???

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Dutchman54

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Suited pocket cards rarely turn into a flush, so they only add about 4% to your EV. Yet in every chart that I see they are valued much more highly than unsuited cards. Why???

Poker Brat doesn’t seem to place a high value on them, though.

 
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xrhstos

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It's a nice change seeing Phil Helmuth not yelling about how his opponent played a hand badly.
I would add that suited connectors play better postflop than AJ, KJ and similar hands that can get dominated easily.
But he is right that they are overrated.
 
8bod8

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good question, maybe they get better depending the opponents and your relative stack. They can be good for bluffing and may pay off.
 
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619Leafs

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The way I value those cards is that you can't always be predictable so I play them when I need to change it up and be looser and sometimes steal pots and the odd making hands.
 
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Dutchman54

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xrhstos said:
It's a nice change seeing Phil Helmuth not yelling about how his opponent played a hand badly.
I would add that suited connectors play better postflop than AJ, KJ and similar hands that can get dominated easily.
But he is right that they are overrated.
Click to expand...


I don’t think that small suited connectors play well, very rarely win, and I have stopped playing them below 98. I also play A2, A3, A4, and A5 suited because they have a chance of making a nut flush or straight, plus the equity of an ace.
 
rj_montana

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That extra equity makes a huge difference against an opponent's range especially in all in situations.
 
KristaK

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hi hi :ciao:
i believe that matter not how many pots you win
but matter how much monies/chips
with suited connectors you have opportunity make a flush which usually wins... if hit that flush is usually a huge pot
 
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Dutchman54 said:
Suited pocket cards rarely turn into a flush, so they only add about 4% to your EV. Yet in every chart that I see they are valued much more highly than unsuited cards. Why???

Poker Brat doesn’t seem to place a high value on them, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTyFTCNYuMg
Click to expand...

If your opponent is holding AK and you have AQo and if flop shows K, then you are dead. Your chances of winning the pot almost finished. But in the same scenario if you have AQ suited and two cards of the same suit appear at flop then you still have a chance to beat your opponent.
I think suited cards gives you an extra strength to proceed with the game even when it appears that you are already down. And probably that is one of the reason they are valued much more highly than unsuited cards.
 
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63burner

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suited good to steal pots with tight players..

If you're going well, suited hands are worth playing to steal a blind. But it's easy to lose sight that others might have the A of K suited, play into you, and steal your stack.
 
mtl mile end

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I love how Phil Helmuth can turn even a short poker tip video into a pity party for Phil Helmuth :musicus:

It's all sound advice, but being a basic "when to play/not play suited connectors" three minute video, he doesn't mention specific times when they are quite playable.

For example, if you can find yourself isolated against a strong pair that raised small PF, you can see a Flop cheaply with one of the hands that have the best chance of beating a big pair. It's still only a small chance, but if the situation is right and a 3.3 to 1 shot makes sense, it's a great hand.
 
Poker_Mike

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mtl mile end said:
I love how Phil Helmuth can turn even a short poker tip video into a pity party for Phil Helmuth :musicus:

It's all sound advice, but being a basic "when to play/not play suited connectors" three minute video, he doesn't mention specific times when they are quite playable.

For example, if you can find yourself isolated against a strong pair that raised small PF, you can see a Flop cheaply with one of the hands that have the best chance of beating a big pair. It's still only a small chance, but if the situation is right and a 3.3 to 1 shot makes sense, it's a great hand.
Click to expand...


That is interesting MTL.

Because my opinion is too play suited connectors multi-way. I want 3 or 4 or more players in the hand to really make it my while - get good pot odds - and possibly win a giant pot.

Suited connectors are very well concealed. And while a player may put you on a straight draw or a flush draw they rarely can put you on both. At least I always fail to put my opponent on both draws simultaneously.

I don't really want to play 87 suited against KK - even isolated - unless I will rep an ace if it comes out. Usually you will hit one pair on the flop or turn and then you are a dog against a big pair.

If I'm going to go for implied odds I want at least a couple of big stacks that can double me up in the hand.

Just the way I like to play them.

I do have a friend and any time she is in the hand I put her on suited connectors or one gappers. She loves to play them profitably OOP. I will muck AA or KK to her in the hand everytime I see the board straightening or flushing out. But other players in the hand don't know how she plays.

Good luck !
 
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myquickwit

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Because you can make a straight or a flush with them. Maybe even a straight flush.
 
mtl mile end

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Poker_Mike said:
That is interesting MTL.

Because my opinion is too play suited connectors multi-way. I want 3 or 4 or more players in the hand to really make it my while - get good pot odds - and possibly win a giant pot.

Suited connectors are very well concealed. And while a player may put you on a straight draw or a flush draw they rarely can put you on both. At least I always fail to put my opponent on both draws simultaneously.

I don't really want to play 87 suited against KK - even isolated - unless I will rep an ace if it comes out. Usually you will hit one pair on the flop or turn and then you are a dog against a big pair.

If I'm going to go for implied odds I want at least a couple of big stacks that can double me up in the hand.

Just the way I like to play them.

I do have a friend and any time she is in the hand I put her on suited connectors or one gappers. She loves to play them profitably OOP. I will muck AA or KK to her in the hand everytime I see the board straightening or flushing out. But other players in the hand don't know how she plays.

Good luck !
Click to expand...
Yup, I, and Phil Helmuth, agree.

I'm just saying it's a 3.3 to 1 shot vs a big pair. Would you play a small pair in the same situation? Your chances are considerably worse with a small pair.

Another benefit of playing suited connectors, as Phil says in the video, is that they're easy to fold if you miss or partially hit the flop. It's the kind of hand where position and number of opponents are less important, and hitting the board is more important (than some baseline figures for some imagined general situation).
 
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KristaK said:
hi hi :ciao:
i believe that matter not how many pots you win
but matter how much monies/chips
with suited connectors you have opportunity make a flush which usually wins... if hit that flush is usually a huge pot
Click to expand...


Let me give an example: with 87 suited you're a 41-59 underdog to KJ unsuited (which is hardly a premium hand). If you have 87 unsuited it changes to 37-63. That 4% is going to change your results 1 in 25 hands. Is that really going to change your fortunes? You can lose a lot of chips when you flop 1 or 2 cards that help your hand but you ultimately don't hit your draw.

I know: I've made bust-em hands. (With 87 suited one time -- one time -- I flopped a boat.) But in the long run it seems like an expensive approach, one to be saved perhaps for when you're deep stacked.
 
thetick33

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people will chase flushes all day every day sometimes unfortunately they will hit
 
armoko

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anyway you get more chances catch flush with suited cards than without. Flush can be beaten with full house which one much harder to catch.
 
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Such thing

Not to say whether suited cards will be a flash, but off suited cards are to say it's different, so that I have to do a different way of thinking.
 
Eric Salvador

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They’re more valued because they’re ahead of hands that aren’t a higher pair going to the flop. Now these hands depend clearly on position, you’re opponents, table dynamics and you’re image. Now just sitting at a table with let’s say 44. You’re UTG on a table that’s been aggressive. You’ll more then likely want to lay this down preflop. Now let’s say you’re on the button with the same hand and UTG raised 3x. He’s been fairly active from this position. I’d put a 3bet in here as long as I had built a tight image. Now let’s say same situation but UTG has been playing tight. You should be calling looking to set mine or outplay Villian postflop. There’s other stipulations in there but low pockets have a certain value according to what‘a going on.
 
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4% preflop. But on flop if you miss pairs but have draw you already know you do you have ~40% vs his defending range.

Also its better hand to bluff if you have backdoor flush draw.
 
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Its very simple. Because they make flushes more often than non-suited cards, and you can make a flush on a 3 card of same suit board (less scary) than 4 card of same suit.
 
Kompany

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I'm inclined to go with Dutchman's statistical/mathematical breakdown here - in other words, Phil Helmuth is right, suited connectors ARE highly overrated.:7h4::8h4:
Dutchman54 said:
Let me give an example: with 87 suited you're a 41-59 underdog to KJ unsuited (which is hardly a premium hand). If you have 87 unsuited it changes to 37-63. That 4% is going to change your results 1 in 25 hands. Is that really going to change your fortunes? You can lose a lot of chips when you flop 1 or 2 cards that help your hand but you ultimately don't hit your draw.

I know: I've made bust-em hands. (With 87 suited one time -- one time -- I flopped a boat.) But in the long run it seems like an expensive approach, one to be saved perhaps for when you're deep stacked.
Click to expand...
 
ChickenArise

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Dutchman54 said:
Suited pocket cards rarely turn into a flush, so they only add about 4% to your EV. Yet in every chart that I see they are valued much more highly than unsuited cards. Why???

Poker Brat doesn’t seem to place a high value on them, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTyFTCNYuMg
Click to expand...

We are constantly pushing small edges and suited cards add to implied odds and to potential nuttiness so they add value. Higher cards often add substantially more value than suitedness so keep suited cards in their proper perspective.

Everything is relative to bet sizing in poker so its important not to over value your hand relative to the amount of money you have to invest to realize that value.
 
Vitorbismark

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good speaking using mathematics you said everything a card with the same suit has higher EV due to the greater possibility of forming a flush.

so when we have, for example, a flush draw and a straight draw at the same time, we have a good chance of winning the hand on the turn or the river. and increasing our outs from 6 to 15, I think this is very good.


a semi-bluff on the flop for example is much better with a flush draw.
 
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I think they have good value because they rarely hit top pair, but they can hit strong draws, if you hit your draw you cant get a lot of value against top pair, even if you don't hit a draw you can win the pot if no high cards come in the flop by bluffing
 
Roller

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In MTT's suited connectors can be profitable when several players are in the pot and you can get in at a reasonable cost. Like set mining you hit you continue and when you miss you can easily bluff or fold them out.
 
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