Why I am not a fan of starting from $0

I have been thinking about the Ferguson Challenge lately, thanks to another thread. I got a little long-winded in my response. If you want to skip all that, the last two paragraphs pretty much sum everything up.

I am a cash game player. Sure, I have played my fair share of tournament poker. Who hasn't? But, in my heart, I am a cash game kind of guy. I work a job that I love, but my job does not leave much money for entertainment expenses. For this reason, I have built my entire bankroll from freerolls. I've actually done this several times on different sites. I have made one deposit in my entire poker life. I deposited $50 on Absolute in order to rake some points to qualify for a high value freeroll. I managed to score $700 from that freeroll (did I mention it was high value) and took $650 back out. That left me with $100 on there to start with. I guess we could also say that my Full Tilt account wasn't truly run up from $0. I was bored with grinding freerolls on there and did a P2P transfer with someone I trusted from Merge to move some of my freeroll winnings from one site to seed the next. I don't count that as depositing.

Over the years, I have withdrawn several thousand dollars for various life-expenses. I guess what I am trying to say is that I have done the Ferguson Challenge. I have a lot of experience with starting the Ferguson Challenge. I do not recommend that other people replicate it. I did it out of necessity. Many people take a sense of pride in replicating it. If your goal in poker is to get a sense of accomplishment, to have something to be proud of, or to play with absolutely no risk then replicating his challenge is something you may be interested in trying. If your goal in poker is to make money and make good use of your time while improving, I would argue that replicating the challenge by starting from $0 is not the best choice.

I feel like I need to say the above, so I don't come off as a poor loser who can't cash a freeroll trying to justify depositing due to impatience. I am saying the following because I feel like my resistance to depositing has hindered and delayed my growth, both in money earned and in skill level attained.

1. The Majority of Ferguson Challenge attempts that start with freerolls are doomed to fail.
   
   Freerolls are hard to cash. Unless you have access to a nice, small, private series of freerolls, you're going to spend months constantly dealing with the frustration of playing large fields for a few cents at a time. When you finally build up enough to sit at a cash table, you'll probably have around 20xbb for the lowest limit. You'll sit down with your entire bankroll at one time (because you're "allowed to" at the lowest limits) and you'll have one shot. One 20xbb shot. How much respect does a 20xbb stack at the micros garner? Hint, the answer is between slim and none. You might be able to get the money in good, but you'll probably have more than one caller more often than you like.
   
   I guess the point is, it is very easy to lose all that money you've spent weeks and weeks accumulating. It takes a lot of heart, a lot of belief in your game, to go back and do it all again after going busto building from freerolls. I've been there. There were times when I thought about just giving up and not playing again. I pushed through all of those times and kept trying until I made it, but I would never blame someone who couldn't. I have a close friend who has tried to follow in my footsteps, he's never had more than $10 in his account. He's currently got $0.73 (too small to sit at any table or buy into any tournament on Bovada) and has given up. He's played with me for years and has still not made it. I think he only tries, once in a while, because I provide encouragement.
   
   I could never fault him, if he decided to give up. I could never fault anybody who tried to start with freerolls and eventually got frustrated and gave up (either by depositing or not playing).
   
   
2. If you're a cash game player, or want to be one, you're going to be spending the majority of time focusing on a game that is not what you want to play.
   
   I don't like tournaments. I've played hundreds, probably even thousands. Some of them I played for social reasons. The majority of them I was playing for money. Most of those were freerolls I used to seed my bankroll. If you want to be a tournament player, this might not be a bad thing. Of course, freerolls play a little differently than the WSOP. Even the smaller buy-in tournaments play very differently from freerolls because people have something on the line.
   
   
3. It can seriously delay progress
   
   Chris Ferguson is a professional level player. It took him over seven months to get a stable bankroll of around $6.50. Seven months of grinding freerolls. Seven months of winning a few cents and either jumping back into the freerolls or hopping on the cash tables way under-rolled for the games. Seven months for less than $10. And, he was still not bankrolled for even the smallest games. For the $2nl games, Ferguson would need $40 by his own rules. That's more than six times the bankroll he built. Really, it was a tournament win around that time that propelled him over $100 that set him up to win.
   
   When you are starting out, you really need all the help you can get. A new player should be focused on using all the promotions and benefits a site offers to help bolster their winrate at the start. Of course they need rakeback, if available. They also could benefit from first deposit bonuses, first depositor freerolls, and other incentives sites offer to get people to make an initial deposit. Clearing those bonuses or cashing in one of those freerolls will accelerate their progress.
   
   
4. The point of the challenge was showing how bankroll management, with a focus on moving up and down, could allow a player to play even the big games.
   
   The challenge was built around 3 rules:
   
   1. He never bought into a cash game or a sit-n-go with more than 5 percent of his total bankroll (there was an exception for the lowest limits: he was allowed to buy into any game with a buy-in of $2.50 or less).
   2. He didn't buy into a multi-table tournament for more than 2 percent of his total bankroll, but he was allowed to buy into any multi-table tournament that cost $1.
   3. If at any time during a No-Limit or Pot-Limit cash-game session the money on the table represented more than 10 percent of his total bankroll, he had to leave the game when the blinds reached him.
   
   You might note that none of these rules require anyone to start from $0 and with freerolls. I really have trouble believing that Chris Ferguson believes it is beneficial for hundreds of players to try and replicate his attempt. Instead, I think he most likely did it as a proof-of-concept. It was an example of how his rules could work for any amount of money, even the most extreme case--$0. If it could work for someone who had no money, there's no reason to try and argue that it can't work for you because you only have $300 and can't imagine playing $10nl.
   
   
5. It starts a player off on the wrong foot
   
   The very worst thing a new player should do, when learning about bankroll management and discipline, is make a bunch of exceptions for why they should be allowed to play above what they know is a reasonable limit for the money they have. What happens to players who end up trying to build from $0. They spend their very first fledgling steps when a real bankroll (even if it's $3) making excuses to play above the 5% limit.
   
   The hardest thing to do is not to teach someone a habit, it's trying to unteach one. I guess this is a small point. Someone who has the discipline to build from $0 and stick with it will probably find the discipline to stick to the upper limits later on. It might be a small thing, but I think it's important. When Chris Ferguson makes an exception for himself, we can assume he knows why it's fine to make the exceptions this time but not others.

I guess I don't really have a point to this. If anything, I would encourage new people who are serious about poker to be more willing to deposit. I would also try and make them understand that it's not a bad thing to deposit at the start. They should not feel ashamed for not wanting to start from $0.

What would I do if I was starting all over again? I would deposit. With my current experience, I would deposit up to the amount that gets me the maximum first deposit bonus or the amount I could reasonably put aside over a couple months. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that for the newest players. I would recommend depositing enough for 20 full buy-ins at the lowest limit. That's usually around $100 (even at PS where $2nl allows $5 buy-ins). They will get all the advantages of depositing without jumping into games well above their skill level. They will be able to claim, with honesty, that they started at the bottom and built their way up. And, best of all, they shaved 7+ months of futile, soul-crushing freeroll grinding.

I've said it forever, the best way to build a bankroll is to get a job and deposit. A days work at McDonalds will set you up better than months of freerolls.

Thanks for this thread. I never heard of the Ferguson Challenge. I will look that up.

Great post,
I'm currently disabled with no source of income so I don't have much choice but to grind freerolls but if/when I get an income I'll want to deposit to take advantage of promotions/deposit bonuses and everything else you mentioned.

vinnie and all,

can one start a business with virtually no money
and build it into a profitable success?
sure. i did it.
the advantages are...
you do not go into debt.
your forced to think about every penny.
you learn your success depends entirely on yourself...
no excuses....never.
i wouldn't do it any other way.
i suppose if one were single and did not have a
family.....then go ahead and risk the future.....
it not your child's education.

best to all,
donvic

I have an account right now that I've built up to $90 from zero. This was on a site that was around before the black friday and now allows US players. I was pleasantly surprised after several years of not playing online poker to find out this site was allowing US players and right now I'm continuing the quest to build the $10000 bankroll. I've been a positive player since cutting my teeth on Planet Poker and Paradise Poker back in the olden days of online poker. I lost my first buy in on Paradise and then bought a book on fixed limit holdem strategy and then went positive from that point on. I honed my skills playing micro fixed limits and I can beat all the micro limits and low fixed limit games. I'm still learning no limit am a positive player at limits up to $5/$10, but barely. I love the challenge of going from zero to $10 grand.

I play only freerolls and sometimes DoN. I have started from 0 and now my bankroll is more than 5000$ after 2 years of playing. I play only few freerolls (around 20 every week) and almost all of my winnings are from freerolls. My winnings in DoNs are less than 100$.

vinnie said:

If anything, I would encourage new people who are serious about poker to be more willing to deposit. I would also try and make them understand that it's not a bad thing to deposit at the start. They should not feel ashamed for not wanting to start from $0.

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People also shouldn't feel proud of never having deposited. I've never understood why some seem to. I'd really like it if someone would explain to me why he or she feels this is an achievement.

And to put this in context, I did deposit to start but never used that money because I won some in a freeroll right away. So in effect, all my winnings over the years originated from that freeroll money. I'm neither proud nor ashamed of that. It's simply what happened.

When one doesn't have the funds to risk - then freerolls are a the only option, because playing with play money eventually is not as exciting .... and I found the switch a huge difference on many levels - people play different, and now more then ever people are going allin ...
I did all the help from each poker site - did the poker school and strategy etc,only to find it didn't work half the time.
So the Ferguson challenge seemed the best way to go for me. My better half plays golf online and it seems that every time one wants to do something on that it costs , so you can do the start from scratch on that to.
So ... I have made a small deposit into poker stars -of course it now does not count towards their depositor freerolls as I made that long before they started those !, But I have fun and if I win - then it is icing on my cake
I think too many people take this too seriously sometimes.

Good post! Really puts things in perspective. Thanks

Arjonius said:

People also shouldn't feel proud of never having deposited. I've never understood why some seem to. I'd really like it if someone would explain to me why he or she feels this is an achievement.

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I think people find pride in it because they feel like they did it the hard way. They intentionally handicapped themselves at the start and still managed to build a bankroll. It's like playing golf against a friend and taking an insane handicap, but still winning. But, to me, poker is not about pride. It's about enjoyment and money. Did I enjoy playing all those hours? Yeah. But, I would have enjoyed them more if I was playing the game I wanted to play. More importantly, I spent a very long time hovering near zero before I could start really building a bankroll.

I'm not saying it's not an accomplishment. I am questioning whether or not it's one worth trying. Being able to make a basket from the half-court line in basketball is also an accomplishment. But, it's of little value. You don't see professional players spending months and months trying to make that shot and looking down on people who decided to not bother with than and focus on the fundamentals.

donvic said:

vinnie and all,

can one start a business with virtually no money
and build it into a profitable success?
sure. i did it.
the advantages are...
you do not go into debt.
your forced to think about every penny.
you learn your success depends entirely on yourself...
no excuses....never.
i wouldn't do it any other way.
i suppose if one were single and did not have a
family.....then go ahead and risk the future.....
it not your child's education.

best to all,
donvic

Click to expand...

I am confused by this. I didn't know that depositing $100 would risk my future or my child's education. There's nothing in my post that says "just keep depositing and playing as high as you want" in it. I consider $100-$500 to be "virtually no money." Many people could save $100 in a month if they would just cut down on some extra expenses.

If you put that $100 on a site and end up losing it, but feel like you're learning, making progress, and getting better then I wouldn't fault you for depositing again after another month. Again, $100 and starting at the lowest limits. I wouldn't suggest depositing $200 and jumping on a $1/$2 table to try and make it all back. In any case, I just don't think investing virtually no money, $100 even if you deposit a couple times, into a potential business is going to ruin anyone's life.

If losing $100 is going to start a cascade of financial troubles that will destroy your family, your future, and your child's education then you've got much larger problems than poker.

JaxA said:

Great post,
I'm currently disabled with no source of income so I don't have much choice but to grind freerolls but if/when I get an income I'll want to deposit to take advantage of promotions/deposit bonuses and everything else you mentioned.

Click to expand...

When I started playing poker online, I was working two jobs just to finish getting my degree. I was living on my own and paying for everything out of my own pocket (except for a few small scholarships). I literally had $5 a week that wasn't allotted for some expense. I could not deposit. One of my jobs involved working over-nights in a hotel (auditing and just holding down the fort), which gave me hours of time to play because the owners did not care as long as I was up to answer the phones if someone called.

So, that's why I did it. I understand. Sometimes, you really can't make a deposit. In that case, building from zero might be your only way. I wish you luck. It's a hard way to begin. Don't allow yourself to get frustrated.

WVHillbilly said:

I've said it forever, the best way to build a bankroll is to get a job and deposit. A days work at McDonalds will set you up better than months of freerolls.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it doesn't take much to seed a bankroll that would take months of running like a god in freerolls and at the cash tables to even come close to.

Well,I did it. [paraphrase]

Click to expand...

Well, I did it, too. I am not claiming the challenge is impossible.

There is also a huge selection bias in trying the challenge from zero. Those few who manage to do it, or at least get off the ground, are the only ones left around to comment on it. People like my friend, who couldn't do it, aren't around to talk about how hard it is because they didn't succeed and gave up.

There's a huge selection bias in poker overall. I just think there's an even larger one for this challenge.

I agree with you entirely, you need a serious bankroll to be playing poker and not risking a large percentage of it at one sitting

Interesting post Vinnie,I think it is a matter of personal choice really.I to have started a bankroll from nothing and still have it today.There is a sense of accomplishment in that, was it the best use of my time maybe, maybe not ,I think it all depends on your personal situation.For me poker is a hobby which I enjoy and am somewhat successful at , I work full time so I have no interest in becoming a pro.I guess what I'm trying to say is everyone must do what is best for them based on their own desires of what they want out of the game.......scorp

Starting from zero is a challenge that maybe gets overrated? I mean, sure, a few have gone from zero to six figures online, but that does not make it the norm, right?

Then again, I don't knock anyone wanting to try it this way, as it is the most challenging, and I imagine, pretty rewarding if successful! And I do think, if you just learned poker, that freerolls are a good way to practice and get a feel for the game first. You will also see a lot of bad plays and learn to understand why they are bad plays. As bad as the calling stations and donkey plays are in a freeroll, "play money" games, in my experience, are even worse!

I have also heard a few people claim that some banks have balked at allowing you to deposit money with an OLP site, from your card with them (maybe that was just after black friday and now they know better and allow it?). That still should not stop you, however, they all have more than one deposit method.

Would agree as well vinnie, great points on the ferg challenge. I think most take on such a challenge for the feeling of doing so as most people have indicated. Also as some have as well indicated, having no means to deposit, which at the current time is me and so have just recently embarked on building up br's from nothing.

Havn't exactly set out such a large initial goal as 10k, hoping to hit 100 at first to give me a br to actually work with. Doing ok so far, got 12 bucks on titan, 6 on bcp. Trying to build these from DON's, been looking to stay away from cash myself at the moment as in the past have tilted great deals of money in cash from no brm.

So essentially my reason for building from 0 right now is because I have gone too far in the negative as it is and don't want to and can't go any further, but still love to play and would hope that I can some day get myself back out through playing poker.

Here is my thread if anyone would like to have a look at the progress been making so far, obviously with such small br's they are still at risk but banking on low don varience and my focus on their strategy lately to get my br's up.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...46/bluffmeallin-0-100-challenge-titan-228017/

Again great points on the ferg challenge, as you mention starting from 0 is not part of his rules but just that he wanted to show how to do so in extreme circumstances.

bluff

Starting from 0 was never about the money for me as I can afford a decent buy in , I just wanted to see if I could . I did it twice , once pre black friday and once post.
This being said if Stars ever opens back up for the states I will just deposit as I don't think I would have the patience again.
In my opinion do as you see fit , both ways have their merit and neither is a wrong choice, it depends on your motivations and desires.

Good post-
I think starting from 0 is a good challenge. It can also be a very good learning experience for newbies learning the game. I know you want the fish at the tables, but I think it's smart to practice for free before you waste any money-- If money isn't an issue to you then it might be about the challenge.

Either way, I understand your point, but I kinda got the idea that you didn't think it was the best option to start from 0. Or maybe you just meant you?

I actually think it's smarted for someone new to start from 0 and work their way- grinding the freerolls. It's a very good learning experience, and there is nothing at risk.

Marsd, you are correct in that you have a different opinion than I do.

I would disagree with the idea that the challenge is a smarter idea for new players. Why? Ask yourself how someone becomes a good player or learns to become better. How do you become better at anything? You practice. So if someone wants to become better at poker, they play. They play a lot!

More specifically, they play the type of poker that they are trying to learn. They play as often as they can.

What happens to their ability to play if they try to do the challenge? It's drastically reduced for months or longer. Even if they want to play tournaments, they have to wait for freerolls that they are eligible to enter. These are much harder to find post Black Friday. Also, like I said, freerolls aren't even that great for learning.

How much better off would that same person be if they could deposit? They could practice their skills on the low buy-in sit and goes or MTTs. A 45-man $1 sit and go will be available almost whenever they are able to play. The field will be limited, the play will be more realistic, etc. And, there's nothing stopping these players from also taking advantage of the freerolls to stretch their bankroll.

It's even worse for a someone who wants to play ring games. They don't get the choice of even sitting in their game of choice until they win a few freerolls. When they finally get a chance to sit at their game, they're often playing with one or two buy-ins (minimum ones at that) and are a couple bad hands from broke. Say they play 100 hands before losing it. What now? They're back to grinding freerolls for another few months before they can do back to the game they want to learn.

So, yeah, I think attempting this challenge as a new player is basically destructive toward learning and growth. It's going to be very hard to get good when you're limited to playing a couple hundred hands a month.

Why is it so bad to have something at risk? Why is it so bad for a new player to risk losing $100 in an attempt to learn the game?

What's $100 in real-life terms? I recently discovered that I enjoy running. Yeah, it shocked the hell out of me too. Running is a very cheap hobby. Even though it's cheap, compared to other hobbies, I have invested way more than $100 in shoes, race entry fees, and other related expenses. I have a 0% expected return on those expenses.

This is different from someone learning poker. Say it costs them $400 over a year before they become decent (number pulled out of thin-air, but I believe it's reasonable). That's not forever lost to them. Once they learn the game, they're still going to be playing the games they can beat and they'll make the money back.

I would say that starting from $0 is way worse for a new player than an experienced one. I would elaborate more, but I have to get some work done at the moment. That's the basic point though. New players need hours at the table. They just won't get as many hours by trying to grind up from $0. How much do you think I would enjoy running if I decided I couldn't pay for entry into a race before I had placed in the top 10 of an open and free race? Open races, where they exist at all, have huge fields. As a new runner, I stand zero chance of getting into the top 10.

The lowest level games are not that hard to beat. But, they are infinitely more beneficial to a new player who has the ability to play in them.

Edit: And the desire for fish at the tables won't benefit me, since I don't usually play 5nl. By the time they move up to where I play, if they follow the other rules and start from the lowest limits, they won't be complete fish anymore.

Vinnie, I understand and agree with most of what you are saying, but I do think there is value in a person playing for free before they put money at risk.

Im not saying they should never put money at risk and play. What I meant to say is that they should "learn the ropes" before they really dive in deep. There is not better way to learn than for free--

I know this is also about the Ferguson challenge, but I am conflicted on what I 100% think about what is best-- I do agree that it makes a difference to play poker when real money at risk, However a good player understands that money shouldnt make much of a difference in your decisions-

Therefore if money shouldnt matter, then why cant someone practice with play money or freerolls until they feel they are ready to put some of their own money at play?-- It shouldnt take long before the new player has figured out how to play--- From that point they can decide whether they want to continue trying to grind the freerolls or if they want to try their hand and make a deposit---

most people will make a deposit because that is a lot more fun
plus, repeating what you said, they have more choices to learn.

My main thing is I just dont think its fair for a new player to think that they wont get any value from playing for free--

Although the value from playing in freerolls is different, and arguably not as good as playing with real money, there is still real value there for someone to learn.

Most of us have access to private freerolls with decent payouts and structures and smaller fields. It's not hard at all to build a bankroll from 0. In fact you don't have to run like a god at all to make a decent little roll to start building from. In my opinion if you can't win enough to start a roll from these small fields in private freerolls you really shouldn't be depositing real money anyway.

You have to learn to walk before you can run.

I have deposited nothing so far and so far have pretty much nothing to show for it, however I would feel a lot more comfortable today putting my own money in the pot than I would have 3 months ago when I didn't even have a basic understanding of the game.

Because of Carbon's funsteps I initially started studying and playing tournament poker and have continued in that vein because I enjoy tournament poker, however without the availability of the freerolls through CC at this point I would be either depositing or not playing at all. I couldn't imagine trying to play cash games shortstacked with money that it took months to scratch out in freerolls, just to have it disappear within 30 minutes. It's funny how five bucks is worth so little in the real world, but if it took you months to get it through freerolls, it looks more like $5000.

I no longer feel that public freerolls are a good use of my time, in the last deep run I did in a Carbon freeroll it took me almost 2.5 hours to get 18 cents, and I had to pull off numerous miracle suckouts on top of getting a huge run of monster hands to boot. This is on top of all the time spent on freerolls without making it into the money; at that rate I could make more per hour rooting through garbage cans for recyclables.

I don't see a problem with a brand new player starting out doing freerolls only, but I do agree that scratching for pennies in this way could start to hinder their development at some point. My college tuition is costing me over $3200 a semester, compared to that a $100 deposit is chump change. One lousy textbook often costs more than that.

Nice post Vinnie. I agree with you on this. As a cash game player myself who has also played free rolls I can say for certainty that they have no benefit to a cash game player's development.

The main argument against your post seems to be that you can't go wrong not risking anything. I'd debate that too. I would rather lose something and learn, than lose nothing (other than a whole load of time) and learn nothing.

I'm certainly not saying you can't play freerolls to get a handle on the game or to supplement your roll.

I'm starting from $0. I have gotten it past $10 a few times and up to around $30 on one occasion, but lost it all again - often due to poor bankroll management and running bad. However, sometimes due to tilting and playing bad as well. I'd still rather tilt with $30 that I grinded because it makes me remember my mistakes better, and will ensure when I am on tilt at higher stakes I don't gamble further...

Poker is hard work. I think that is the main advantage of grinding up from $0; it really gives you a great idea of what you need to do in order to have real success at poker.

Of course, the disadvantage is inefficiency. If you have even $50 or $100 to set aside and play, as long as you are on a site that doesn't rake the micro stakes too hard, you are in a much better position to begin your poker career than by starting at $0.

But not everybody has $50 or $100, and not everybody feels comfortable risking money in a new game. Some people have a lot of pride on starting with $0.

Of course, having started playing many years ago, I would say to any new player not to worry at all about starting with $0 or $100. Just play a lot of poker, don't get too emotional and try to objectively look at your decision making at all times and find ways to improve it. If you can't do those things, you're not likely to have the kind of success that you want in poker, no matter how much $$ you start out with.