Why does everyone hate limping?

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Foxhound3857

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All I ever see is "if you're the first one entering the pot, RAISE." Either raise or fold, but never limp.

Why? What's so bad about limping/flat calling? Is it absolutely never a good idea?
 
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PLAYFUL1

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All I ever see is "if you're the first one entering the pot, RAISE." Either raise or fold, but never limp.

Why? What's so bad about limping/flat calling? Is it absolutely never a good idea?

Playful likes to limp with pocket AA, always a good return on the overall pot:joyman:
 
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RunGd

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A number of reasons,
you need to raise to thin out your opponents, it's harder to win against multiple opponents!
It helps define opponents hands, if you are reraised after raising, saying that you have a hand then they are telling you they have a very strong hand, if you're raised after limping they're range is going to bet a lot wider!
It builds a pot worth winning when you have a strong hand,
You can cbet the flop and hold on to initiative in the hand,
You can exploit players who begin taking a stand against your aggression,
You don't instantly mark yourself as a fish leading to the better players at the table targeting you(maybe this what you want though)
 
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Foxhound3857

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A number of reasons,
you need to raise to thin out your opponents, it's harder to win against multiple opponents!
It helps define opponents hands, if you are reraised after raising, saying that you have a hand then they are telling you they have a very strong hand, if you're raised after limping they're range is going to bet a lot wider!
It builds a pot worth winning when you have a strong hand,
You can cbet the flop and hold on to initiative in the hand,
You can exploit players who begin taking a stand against your aggression,
You don't instantly mark yourself as a fish leading to the better players at the table targeting you(maybe this what you want though)

What if I want to invite other players to come into the pot with limping or small raises to build pot odds against multiple opponents incase I hit the flop hard, maybe with suited connectors?
 
Space Ghost

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Open raising also has the benefit of pissing off the old men at your table.
 
vinylspiros

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the only time i might limp (which is almost never) is if im in early position with a low pocket pair and the table is 9 handed with alot of aggro 3 bettors behind me who i know will 3bet anyway so in order to see a cheap flop and maybe hit my set ,i might limp/call 3bet, instead of raise/call 3-bet in order to see a cheaper flop.


This of course only in tournaments where blinds are high and table is very aggro.
 
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bnasp2

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Well, its because rookie players often limps, because they are not sure about raise.

Its actually other way around. You should be dam sure why are you limping. If you are not sure, better raise.

E.g. how will you narrow range of BB? With limp, you will loose with you KQs against 63o. And you will loose big pot, because you will not expect such hand at your opponent.

Raise gives you reasonable fold equity (to get money without risk). At some tables, those money are big part of your profit. With limp => no fold equity.

Rookie: raises with monsters, limps with mediocre hand => BAD
Better: raise with monsters and some interesting hands. Fold mediocre hands.

Mediocre hands are BAD BAD BAD. Like KJ, KT. Why? Because you will in 50% win a small pot and 50% loose a big pot.
Better fold such hands and use 89s etc.
 
Zorba

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Well, its because rookie players often limps, because they are not sure about raise.

Its actually other way around. You should be dam sure why are you limping. If you are not sure, better raise.

E.g. how will you narrow range of BB? With limp, you will loose with you KQs against 63o. And you will loose big pot, because you will not expect such hand at your opponent.

Raise gives you reasonable fold equity (to get money without risk). At some tables, those money are big part of your profit. With limp => no fold equity.

Rookie: raises with monsters, limps with mediocre hand => BAD
Better: raise with monsters and some interesting hands. Fold mediocre hands.

Mediocre hands are BAD BAD BAD. Like KJ, KT. Why? Because you will in 50% win a small pot and 50% loose a big pot.
Better fold such hands and use 89s etc.

I love it when I get a free look at the flop with absolute crap, if you hit you almost always get value.

I don't remember who said it but there is a saying, "if it's good enough to limp it's good enough to raise"

:top:
 
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RunGd

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What if I want to invite other players to come into the pot with limping or small raises to build pot odds against multiple opponents incase I hit the flop hard, maybe with suited connectors?

By limping and seeing others limp behind, the pot is not really going to build. Raise and get called it will be bigger. Also you're going to miss or connect slightly with the flop a lot more than crushing it, and then be forced to fold or call probably out of position with draws.
 
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RunGd

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I also forgot in my first post the most obvious reason to raise, you can take down the blinds unchallenged.
 
AIexander K

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Most often used as a trapping play, limp re-raising is a powerful tool that will help you mix up your play and keep your opponents guessing about your cards.
 
Propane Goat

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When you limp, you have only one way to win the pot. When you raise, you have two ways. That's the primary reason.

I tend to disagree about the limp-reraise keeping opponents guessing, once I see someone do that and it goes to showdown, they have QQ+ the overwhelming majority of the time. If they're doing this with stuff like JTs, middle pairs, etc., I often see them make an early exit from the tournament because their aggression is way overboard in general.
 
dopeddrgn

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I play SNG exclusively these days and limping in the right spots can be profitable but limping AA is just insane. If you like being on tilt, limp AA get beat by the BB's 24o when he hits a pair and calls your all-in shove. Any player limping AA deserves to be punished.

I limp my lower range hands like connectors and one gapers when in position or in the SB. Keeps the pot low to the see flop. If I hit or get a draw I get aggressive and try to take the pot right away. If I have callers and hit I hammer them with a nice raise on the turn. I never limp UTG with my low range though.
 
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Foxhound3857

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What if I have a big hand like Aces or Kings? Don't I want multi-way action with a big pair (to take a flop 3-handed or more)? I assume there's bigger pots to be had with a big pair if I get multiple callers as opposed to getting heads up.
 
razva_raz94

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When you have a good hand you want to get more value preflop and isolate people calling with low suites connectors like 6-5 offsuit
 
2Pacavelli

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basically it's because you limping , will probably play post- flop against many players and it will be difficult to buy the pot with a bluff
 
smallfrie

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I think in optimal tournament play regardless of the hand you hold when you decide to open that you should open for a raise and raise the same amount whether it is 2.5x or 3x or 4x or whatever you are raising at the particular level in the tournament (generally larger raises in early levels tapering down to smaller raises in late levels of tournament) Keep your raises the same for the level. and I think optimal play will almost always dictate that you follow with a continuation bet when faced with a headsup post flop situation. The only time you are going to see a Pro open limp is if they think that an exploitive type play vs usually another pro is in order but they almost never open limp. When you open raise you give yourself a chance to win uncontested preflop or you set up a win vs a preflop call with a continuation bet regardless of the cards you hold don't take away your chances to win by open limping.
 
Propane Goat

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What if I have a big hand like Aces or Kings? Don't I want multi-way action with a big pair (to take a flop 3-handed or more)? I assume there's bigger pots to be had with a big pair if I get multiple callers as opposed to getting heads up.

The more people you see a flop with when you have AA/KK, the more likely they are to get cracked. You're losing equity pre-flop with every additional villain in the hand, especially if you're allowing limpers to set-mine for cheap.

In addition, the BB gets a free ride and he/she could have anything; I can't count the number of times I've seen people limp with big pairs and then pay off the BB who flopped two pair with 94o because they thought their one overpair to the board was unbeatable.

For giggles, plug in a typical multi-way limped pot with a BB holding crap into a calculator, for example AA vs JTs vs 44 vs 22 vs 73o: You don't even have 50% equity preflop which means you're going to lose by the river more than half the time.
 
onondaga

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not everyone! i like limping) i also like raising and calling! its depends on what cards do u have/ raise or fold but never limp!? never hear something like this/ do what u must to do, or what u want to do. i just think that limping (if u like limp it must end after turn) with good cards is a road to nowhere.

another great move is all-in :D , behind the limp ///
 
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clarence crumpet

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I limp far too much, I will try this new way.
 
Saperion

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Limping suited conectors, in early positions is very rentable.I never limp AA, KK, QQ or Ak in early unless i know theres an agressive player opening a lot of pots. If i limp AA and the agressive player raises the pot, i wil try to aislate him in a big pot re-raising him.
 
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WiZZiM

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there is a time and place for everything. formats like hyper turbos or games where the effective stacks are really shallow or in HU games, limping is an absolute weapon
 
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