why do people bother going all in with low pocket pair?

R

RickAversion

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It seems like crappy pocket pair basically gives you around 50% pot equity, IF it's head's up. So, why do people bother going all in with pocket pair? If one person calls, and it's H2H, you're getting even odds on your money with 50% odds of winning. That's break even, so why the hell do you bother? It seems like the pot is NEVER in your favor with shitty pocket pair. 50% ...60% at best.

It seems like you'd only go all in when you have like 75% pot equity, and then you're getting 50/50 even money on your bet. But, at 50/50 with crappy pocket pair, why bother?
 
Kenzie 96

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If the player shoving considers himself to be an inferior player, then this is a perfectly legitimate move.

By the way, not referring to Zorba in this post. :eek: :D
 
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Zorba

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Are you talking about tournament play or cash games, I play them differently for both types of games.
 
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nomadnative

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If they occasionally pick up blinds and some limps then they will actually show a little +EV in the long run.

Better players will try to set mine or bluff catch for value and fold when they are beat.
 
hackmeplz

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Obviously you give no details at all, but in a lot of spots shoving you can get your opponent to fold some of the time and be flipping a lot of the times you're called which is +ev, and if calling a shove you're usually getting odds so only need to have something like 35-40% for it to be a call. Finally I'm sure some people go all-in in bad spots because they are bad at poker. If you want better responses please give a couple of examples.
 
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yeah it is true that with low pocket pair you have 50/50 chances of winnin even against AK. i don't think it is profitable, cause I think that the fold equity you have does not compensate the loses when a bigger pocket pair calls you. It would be profitable if you are really shortstack and need to steal blinds. There the fold equity is bigger, and thus you know that bigger stacks would be calling you with weaker hands, so there is less probability of getting called with a bigger pocket pair. to conclude, it is matter of yours and your opponents stack.
 
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yeah it is true that with low pocket pair you have 50/50 chances of winnin even against AK. i don't think it is profitable, cause I think that the fold equity you have does not compensate the loses when a bigger pocket pair calls you. It would be profitable if you are really shortstack and need to steal blinds. There the fold equity is bigger, and thus you know that bigger stacks would be calling you with weaker hands, so there is less probability of getting called with a bigger pocket pair. to conclude, it is matter of yours and your opponents stack.

It's not 50/50. A small pocket pair is ahead of AK. Depending on the spot, it can be a very good --- and profitable --- play.

-HooDooKoo
 
kidkvno1

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All-in preflop equity AK 45.016% 77 is 54.984%, even AK vs 22 AK 47.350% 22 52.650%.
Go and get PokerStove. If he shoves with AA and you call with AK, you're dead in the water.
 
BLACKSTACK

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Ill go all in with spp on yourneys,alot will cakl withax,its profitable in the long run
 
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ezevan1022

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You may be forced to go all in with a small pocket pair, your making to broad of a generalized post to give you to good of a detailed answer. If I have 12bbs or less I'm shoving pocket 6s+ you can't wait for the nuts, or else you will just get blinded out.
 
dmorris68

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As others have said, it depends on variables which you don't indicated in the OP. Stack sizes, action before you, player images, bubble scenarios, position (who is left to act), etc can all factor into a decision to shove a small PP. In some cases it might be a fistpump snap shove, in others a clear fold.

The point being, in poker there are few situations in which "always" or "never" will apply.
 
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S3mper

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You may be forced to go all in with a small pocket pair, your making to broad of a generalized post to give you to good of a detailed answer. If I have 12bbs or less I'm shoving pocket 6s+ you can't wait for the nuts, or else you will just get blinded out.

If I have 12bb I'm shoving any pocket pair and Ak AQ AJ KQ KJ and maybe others depending on position actually any Ace an Kt+

Of course I'm probably open shoving and not calling a shove but again situational

Sooo OP In a tournament if your short stacked shoving to either pick up the Blinds or double up is a must. if your low on chips just calling to set mine is - EV
 
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Not enough info given in OP but we can glean this much:
It seems like you'd only go all in when you have like 75% pot equity

This statement is just absurd, if you're waiting to have 75% then you are leaving tons of money on the table.

Assuming you are talking about MTTs, going all in with small pocket pairs is standard practice. Restealing with 22 is going to be profitable because you have fold equity -- you aren't going to have 50% vs. a calling range, more like 36%-40%, but that's good enough to make the play profitable. If you don't understand why this is the case you'll need to study up on basic shoving spots.
 
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Ok, so I wasn't crazy about the EV of low pocket pairs.
What I overlooked was the fold equity.
And even if 50/50, you are getting an edge from EV b/c you take the blinds.
And you take whatever else was bet until then.
The 50/50 is really only applied to the actual shove raise.
All the other money folded is above that, giving you a better than 50% EV
 
S3mper

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Ok, so I wasn't crazy about the EV of low pocket pairs.
What I overlooked was the fold equity.
And even if 50/50, you are getting an edge from EV b/c you take the blinds.
And you take whatever else was bet until then.
The 50/50 is really only applied to the actual shove raise.
All the other money folded is above that, giving you a better than 50% EV
Well I think shoving small PP is more of a tournament move then a cash game, also it's a short stacked tournament move.

If you start shoving small PP with a big stack or in a cash game I think it becomes more of a -EV play
 
Loonbat

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Fold equity is a huge factor in MTTs and actually there are situations where ANY TWO CARD (ATC) shoves may be +EV.
 
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credsfan03

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Like kidkv said the odds are not 50/50. And by applying the odds of a "flip" you are not taking into consideration when the guy who calls you has a huge pocket pair and you are dominated. As for playing pocket pairs I am not shoving with them early on in a tournament unless I am trying to push a guy off his hand which hardly every happens when playing deep stacked early in a tournament. When you get down to 10 to 15 bbs you need to start opening up and shoving with pocket pairs when the conditions are right. What I mean by this is if you have a 15 bbs and a pocket pair and somebody raises in early position and it folds around to you will want to fold that as long as the player has not been really active at the table because the range that he is normally raising you with is usually at best a coin flip. You want to try to shove your small pocket pairs when there is a chance that people will fold to you.
 
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tryin2winM

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It's not 50/50. A small pocket pair is ahead of AK. Depending on the spot, it can be a very good --- and profitable --- play.

-HooDooKoo

Ive never seen you call with a small pocket pair yet. LMAO
 
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it depends they want to gamble and take the chance it pays off most of the time they will lose
 
Beanfacekilla

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There is no "one size fits all" advice for poker.

That being said, I have this to add. In my experience, inexperienced players do this frequently. They have little to no postflop skills, and they just want to either fold out everyone, or get doubled up (hopefully).

And sometimes better players will do this against opponents where they may think they have fold equity. And there still is plan B, if they get called, maybe they will hit a set (1 in 8).

In MTTs, fold equity is a big part of the game. Stealing blinds and antes is essential for survival. Players are not afforded the luxury of waiting for top 10 hands.

That is all.
 
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Ive never seen you call with a small pocket pair yet. LMAO

You're laughing, but I have all the money. How, exactly, does that work? If you want to pay for your amusement, that's perfectly fine with me.

Keep tryin2win ...

-HooDooKoo
 
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C'mon now. Do I have put you two in the corner?:D

blah.

I'm not the one that came into a general thread and called anyone out, so I'm pretty sure I have the right to defend myself. You can put me in the corner if you want, but I'm like Houdini so I won't be there for long.

-HooDooKoo
 
Beanfacekilla

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I'm not the one that came into a general thread and called anyone out, so I'm pretty sure I have the right to defend myself. You can put me in the corner if you want, but I'm like Houdini so I won't be there for long.

-HooDooKoo
Whoa there. Just a bad joke dude. Easy there killer.....:rolleyes:
 
zEric7x

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55 is the hand of legends. When you all in you hit trips and win or you will beat a over pair and win.
Except for the times you lose.
 
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