Why 3x to 4x In An Unopened Pot?

D

Dannycoho

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
May 16, 2012
Total posts
11
Chips
0
Not sure if this is the right place for this.

Been thinking, why is the standard raise size pre flop 3x or 4x in an unopened pot.

Let's say we are 100 bb effective stacks. We open w AA UTG to 4x and we get 1 caller. The pot is now 8 bb and we have 92 remaining.

We are now in a situation where we created an SPR of 11.5, which is pretty poor for our type of hand. It also sets up perfectly pot odds wise and spr wise for our villain to set mine with any pocket pair.

My question is if someone can explain why this is the standard open sizing of it typically puts us into unfavorable circumstances. Maybe there is something I am not completely understanding. It seems like it allows the villain to play perfectly and puts us in a position to make sure we value bet correctly and fold our overpair or tptk hand in the right spots.

Anyway just something I've been thinking about. Comments and criticism to my thought process appreciated as well as any further insight.
 
S

Slow Roll Poker

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Total posts
1,322
Chips
0
I assume this is going to be moved into the poker section(s), but I'll go ahead and post.

The way you broke it up seems a little odd. But you have to think, 3-4x is just enough to get the bad hands out and the good hands some money into the pot. I actually love the 4x, it's probably my main option of a raise. As far as the pot odds and such goes, you shouldn't be calling 4x raises with ungodly terrible hands so most of the time it's just not the right flop. I know when I'm calling nice-sized raises, I've got a pocket pair, high cards, or suited connectors. This is mostly when I'm playing tight in a tournament I actually care to win. I think things get different working with big stacks. Depending on the stack size, I'd maximize my raises to 6-8x. If I'm holding a stack of 242,000, with the blinds at 2000/4000, I'd probably bet around 32,000, which is an 8x.
 
Last edited:
vinnie

vinnie

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Total posts
1,208
Awards
1
US
Chips
50
All bets are a balance between risk and reward. With 1.5xbb out there, we really don't want to risk more than 3-4xbb (outright) to try and pick it up. If we typically bet larger than this, we risk too much for the reward. If we typically bet smaller, we're offering a good price for someone to try and call and out-flop us. That, of course, is if we believe our opponents are thinking opponents. At the micros, I will sometimes vary my bet sizes against the worst players. I will also vary them slightly based on position and stack sizes. Still, typical sizes should probably be around 3-4xbb just because it's a decent balance point.

Now, onto the more important point. It is true that it can be hard to play one-pair hands with an SPR around 11. But, that is only the case if our opponent is going to put us to hard decisions. If our opponent is never going to put in a pot-sized shove as a bluff, we don't care about playing with an SPR in that area. Our opponent is never going to take advantage of that. Very few players, at least at the smaller stakes, are really going to put you to hard decisions. If they are, then you start to worry about poor SPR ratios for your hand type.
 
Aleksei

Aleksei

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Total posts
1,527
Chips
0
3/4x discourages TAGish players from flatting so that you can value town the fish to death. It also doesn't put in a ton of money to just take down the blinds most of the time. And keep in mind you don't wanna raise bigger with AA than weaker value-open hands (it's exploitable) and you usually can't stand a flat with say, JJ or AQo, when you open 8x, because any competent player that sees your bet has the nuts.

In fact, I favor opening smaller when there's no fish at the table, because it encourages people to call or raise wider ranges. In a tight dynamic I minraise from every position as a standard.

As for the example above, keep in mind speculative hands will miss the vast majority of the time, so most of the time when you have AA and someone calls you down it's with a weaker OP or TPTK (if they're good), and assorted random garbage like 3rd pair (if they're bad).
 
T

terminaex

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 18, 2013
Total posts
12
Chips
0
Read the situtation and adapt

I believe that the 3X-4X raise has now been clearly recognized as the "Standard" raise (with ~20BB > stack). This has two main implications:

Against typical ABC poker players & Fish:
This standard raise will kill off any junk hands from these players instantly and allow you to narrow their range to at minimum potential drawing hands e.g. suited connectors or paint cards or any other suited (depending on how loose your opponent is).

Suggestion: Keep to the standard and make them pay to draw. Most will fold to a CB if they have no opportunity to draw on the flop. This play will remain profitable from early to middle stage of tournaments.

Against LAG and 'creative' players:
Because they recognize it as standard they are liable to take advantage of your psychology and make the call out of position with junk to bluff you on a dry flop where you would have most likely missed.

Suggestion: Vary you raise sizes to keep them guessing. Bet hard and fast with the nuts.
 
vinnie

vinnie

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Total posts
1,208
Awards
1
US
Chips
50
I believe that the 3X-4X raise has now been clearly recognized as the "Standard" raise (with ~20BB > stack). This has two main implications:

You didn't read the OP did you? The OP was asking about opening raise sizes and how they related to SPR with 100xbb cash game stacks. Not 20xbb tournament stacks. :rolleyes:
 
D

Dannycoho

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
May 16, 2012
Total posts
11
Chips
0
It would be helpful if you guys included what sites you are currently playing on and what stakes. Thanks.
 
Jblocher1

Jblocher1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Total posts
2,645
Chips
0
Suggestion: Vary you raise sizes to keep them guessing. Bet hard and fast with the nuts.

My suggestion is the opposite. I think your opening raise size should be almost the same every time... Whether u have 2 7 off bluffing the button, or pocket aces. If your doing the same thing with bluffs and great hands its difficult to pick off when u have something. It makes u harder to read IMO. I feel like that's just easier than varying your bet sizes. Betting the same amount every time works just as well and In my opinion is better
 
Aleksei

Aleksei

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Total posts
1,527
Chips
0
You can vary your bet sizings based on stack sizes and game dynamics and even position; just be careful to NEVER do it based on the strength of your hand.
 
vinnie

vinnie

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Total posts
1,208
Awards
1
US
Chips
50
You can vary your bet sizings based on stack sizes and game dynamics and even position; just be careful to NEVER do it based on the strength of your hand.

I confess. I sometimes vary my raise sizes by hand strength. But, only against passive fish who call too much and don't appear to think about bet sizes. If he is going to call 7xbb as quickly as 3xbb, I am going to make a bigger pot with my largest hands.

That's probably something I will only get to do because of insanely bad some of the players are at the micros.

Note: I don't do this all the time or even that often. It takes a special kind of bad player for me to go for value like that.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 
D

DunningKruger

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Total posts
1,030
Chips
0
I remember opening like 7× or so every time for a couple of sessions just for ****s and giggles and had a ton of success with it, but this was a few years ago when people were really bad at poker.
 
Mr Sandbag

Mr Sandbag

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
2,635
Chips
0
My suggestion is the opposite. I think your opening raise size should be almost the same every time... Whether u have 2 7 off bluffing the button, or pocket aces. If your doing the same thing with bluffs and great hands its difficult to pick off when u have something. It makes u harder to read IMO. I feel like that's just easier than varying your bet sizes. Betting the same amount every time works just as well and In my opinion is better

I like this approach. So many weak players give away hands by changing the sizes of raises. It is hilarious when a player all of a sudden bets 10x the BB out of nowhere, pretty much declaring AA.

That being said, while 3 to 4x the BB is considered standard, it depends on the table. If you are at an ultra loose table and everyone is calling your raise, you can decide to increase it. On the flip side, if the table is super tight, you may be able to bet 2x the BB and achieve the same as 3 or 4x.
 
Aleksei

Aleksei

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Total posts
1,527
Chips
0
I confess. I sometimes vary my raise sizes by hand strength. But, only against passive fish who call too much and don't appear to think about bet sizes. If he is going to call 7xbb as quickly as 3xbb, I am going to make a bigger pot with my largest hands.

That's probably something I will only get to do because of insanely bad some of the players are at the micros.

Note: I don't do this all the time or even that often. It takes a special kind of bad player for me to go for value like that.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Oh yeah yeah I mean, if villain is terrible and not adjusting **** balancing. Let There Be Range actually advocates blocker betting super weak made hands and then massively overbetting the nuts postflop vs these idiots.
 
Top