Who made the right move here?

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Weffy

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Okay, here's a hand I played and it was quite interesting... to me at least. I'm going to post it without revealing my position, and see if you guys can guess who was me, and most importantly who played the hand right.

4 Players
~$270 Villan (Button)
~$375 BB
~$100 SB
~$325 Hero (Late position)

Villan Has
<see next post if you don't want to guess>

Hero Has
<see next post if you don't want to guess>

Pre Flop:
Hero calls $2, Button Calls $2, BB Raises to $12, SB calls, Hero calls, Button calls

Flop comes (Pot @$45 $3 rake)
:jd4: :9h4: :kc4:
Check around to Villan(Button)
Villan Bets $2
BB calls
SB calls
Hero Raises to $22
Villan Pushes All-In for ~$225
BB Fold
SB Fold
Hero Calls

Turn Comes rag 5 ... River comes, rag 3.



Who played this right and who made the misplay? even though you don't know who I was, I want to know what everyone should have done, BB, SB, Button, UTG. I may or may not have folded, and not included my hole cards.

Thanks!
 
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Weffy

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Villan Has
:9d4: :9c4:

Hero Has
:qs4: :10s4:

Hero knocks out villain with a straight to a set of 9's
 
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DunningKruger

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Yeah the hands were in the first post. Beyond that I really don't want to say anything because if I start I probably won't stop. nh tho.
 
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Weffy

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Did I fix it? Please do ramble though!
 
B

bull

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Here's my preflop analysis:.
BB raised 6 times the big blind. (OK play, looking to squeeze)
Hero utg & oop calls with 10,Qs - (Bad play)
Villain button calls - (OK play, has position and set mining.)
SB - (Terrible play - Raise from BB and 2 calls, should not call unless you have QQ atleast imo)
 
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Weffy

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Here's a stupid hand for you. Didn't want to start another thread, but this really put me on tilt.

Merge - $0+$0|<> NL - Holdem - 10 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

CO: 1,585.00
BTN: 2,200.00
SB: 1,560.00
Hero (BB): 1,505.00
UTG: 1,050.00
UTG+1: 1,540.00
MP: 1,385.00
MP+1: 1,445.00
MP+2: 1,315.00
LP: 1,415.00

SB posts SB 25.00, Hero posts BB 50.00

Pre Flop: (75.00) Hero has J:club: Q:heart:

fold, fold, MP calls 50.00, fold, MP+2 calls 50.00, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero checks

Flop: (175.00, 3 players) 5:diamond: J:heart: 5:spade:
Hero checks, MP bets 200.00, MP+2 raises to 1,265.00 and is all-in, Hero calls 1,265.00, fold

Turn: (2905.00, 2 players) A:diamond:

River: (2905.00, 2 players) Q:diamond:

Hero shows J:club: Q:heart: (Two Pair, Queens and Jacks) (Pre 44%, Flop 87%, Turn 5%)
MP+2 shows 6:heart: A:club: (Two Pair, Aces and Fives) (Pre 56%, Flop 13%, Turn 95%)
MP+2 wins 2,905.00
 
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Weffy

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Here's my preflop analysis:.
BB raised 6 times the big blind. (OK play, looking to squeeze)
Hero utg & oop calls with 10,Qs - (Bad play)
Villain button calls - (OK play, has position and set mining.)
SB - (Terrible play - Raise from BB and 2 calls, should not call unless you have QQ atleast imo)

Thank you!

I agree and think the pre flop plays were by the book. SB maybe not so much, but he.. or me... may have had a top 12 hand or something. AA-AJs

Hero, imo, just got a bit lucky, but the error Villan made was not seeing the weird straight draw on the board. I'm not sure if he should have pushed but instead felt out everyone else with a big bet or slow played it. I may be wrong there. I would do the same thing villain did on that board with his hole cards.
 
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DunningKruger

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I would do the same thing villain did on that board with his hole cards.

I wouldn't make a habit out of betting $2 into $45. When you bet for value, you're looking for value. Just something to think about imo.
 
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batmankiller

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post flop play was some of the weirdest.

Villain bets $2 into a $45 pot.. why? If you're normally aggro and inducing a bluff you would bet at least 30, if you're getting value.. bet for value (25 min), if you're testing the waters... same. WTF is the 2 in 45 supposed to do? Maybe he thought hero was bluffing on the weak raise and decided to re-raise shove but my god such weird play. Hero raise to $22 though was pretty awkward for him just because of the $2 bet but regardless I see this as a good value raise, since AQ is unlikely since villain had the button and simply limped, so hero has nuts.
 
vinnie

vinnie

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I had the hands backwards, you with {99} and the Button with {QT} but that's just because I figured you both probably had sets, top-two, or the straight in your "willing to get it all-in" flop range. And then I just guessed who had what part of that range based on what hands were most likely. Once the money goes in on the flop I give both players a range somewhat like:

  • 99 -- most likely set
  • JJ -- slightly less likely because pre-flop would raise
  • KK -- unlikely because of pre-flop action, but possible
  • QT -- most likely hand for calling after limper, calling raise in position, and willing to get it all in -> most likely the BTN has this but UTG could
  • KJ -- maybe 20% of the time a player has this they're willing to get in on this flop with it, but about as likely as KK (not very).

QT is the most likely hand (both with the way it's played and the combos), so it's pretty likely one person had it. The next most likely hand would be a set, and 99 the most likely all the sets.

Anyway, 4-handed, why are you limping in with QTs? Why is the BTN limping behind with 99 (even in position)? The pre-flop play here is passive and weak. If you're going to play a hand with only 4 players, take control and put the rest of the players to a decision.

Also, I am not sure how the BB raises before the SB calls. In every street you have the BB act before the SB. Do you have those backwards? In any case, you got lucky. Nice win.
 
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Weffy

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I had the hands backwards, you with {99} and the Button with {QT} but that's just because I figured you both probably had sets, top-two, or the straight in your "willing to get it all-in" flop range. And then I just guessed who had what part of that range based on what hands were most likely. Once the money goes in on the flop I give both players a range somewhat like:

  • 99 -- most likely set
  • JJ -- slightly less likely because pre-flop would raise
  • KK -- unlikely because of pre-flop action, but possible
  • QT -- most likely hand for calling after limper, calling raise in position, and willing to get it all in -> most likely the BTN has this but UTG could
  • KJ -- maybe 20% of the time a player has this they're willing to get in on this flop with it, but about as likely as KK (not very).

QT is the most likely hand (both with the way it's played and the combos), so it's pretty likely one person had it. The next most likely hand would be a set, and 99 the most likely all the sets.

Anyway, 4-handed, why are you limping in with QTs? Why is the BTN limping behind with 99 (even in position)? The pre-flop play here is passive and weak. If you're going to play a hand with only 4 players, take control and put the rest of the players to a decision.

Also, I am not sure how the BB raises before the SB calls. In every street you have the BB act before the SB. Do you have those backwards? In any case, you got lucky. Nice win.

You've got it a bit backwards ;)

I'm messing with your heads. I was on the button with the 99, and pushed to the QT

We both made mistakes pre, but I just wanted to make just that his win was more luck than skill.


I play tight, unless I see face pockets, or I see AA-ATs... I'm limping in pre. It works to my advantage most of the time. The table always puts me on a strong hand when I'm in, and every other strong hand I'm on someone just has to chase it or just cold call "just to be sure".

Also, I use my rep as a tight player at the table once in a blue moon to bluff a mild sized pot, about 50 bucks on the flop if it's scary and I'm in middle position. Why? because it makes no sense to the players who called me pre that I wouldn't have a hand. And anyone who see's a raise from me pre-flop will fold because they're "scared" that they don't have the skill to beat me.

Works 90% of the time. I always start short stacked, and work my way up to max buy in then leave... come back in a half hour buy in min again.
 
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afoostenrijk

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pre flop: very bad
post flop: bingo
 
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Weffy

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Here it is showing my position and the hole cards. (Switched Villan and Hero)
To the comment about SB calling out of turn, I may have screwed up the order of BB and SB, but Hero and Villain are correct.



4 Players
~$375 BB
~$100 SB
~$325 Villain (Late position)
~$270 Hero (Button) [Weffy]

Pre Flop:
Villain calls $2
Hero(Button) Calls $2
SB calls
BB Raises to $12
Villain calls
Hero(Button) calls
SB calls

Flop comes (Pot @$45 $3 rake)
:jd4: :9h4: :kc4:
Check around to Hero(Button)
Hero Bets $2
BB calls
SB calls
Villain Raises to $22
Hero Pushes All-In for ~$225
BB Fold
SB Fold
Villain Calls




Hero Shows
:9d4: :9c4:
Villain Shows:
:qs4: :10s4:

Turn Comes rag 5 ... River comes, rag 3.

Hero knocks out villain with a straight to a set of 9's
 
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vinnie

vinnie

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What is up with your bet sizing on this flop? You min-bet? Why not bet $20-$30 or something? When you get reraised, what hands do you think call a shove on this board?

Do you have any hands not in the range I gave earlier? Of those hands, you only beat KJ (which I don't think calls a shove all the time anyway). Of those hands, 22 combos beat you and you beat 9--again, only if he calls with KJ every time.

I don't know that you can shove for value here. And I don't think you intend to turn bottom set into a bluff.

While I am not a fan of your preflop play, I think you can defend it. But, your play on the flop was not ideal (trying to be nice).

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 
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Weffy

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It was a semi-bluff of sorts.

I didn't put him on the straight (QT), I put him on top pair... so I shoved hoping for a fold.
 
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grandpajesse

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Wow, this hand was a train wreck from the start. I am not trying to be mean, but you really should not be playing cash games this big. Limping LP with your hand is not only weak, you get no information on your opponents hand ranges. Man I really could go off on a long ass tangent,but I will restrain myself. If you have $$$ to burn and want to play bigger games fine. Seriously though, I would advise you drop down to @ least 25nl. You butchered this hand on so many levels. 0_o sorry.... really not trying to be mean.
 
vinnie

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I am currently driving cross-country. This has given me a lot of time to reflect on this hand (was what I read right before we left). I have a bunch of stuff I want to add but I need to wait until I get home to run some numbers.

Just a tangential question:
Was this online or live?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 
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afoostenrijk

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of course to villian, that is an ridicilous call, and in the long run he will loose a lot, which site does this guy play i want some piece of him :)
 
vinnie

vinnie

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I hope this comes off as constructive criticism. I warn you, this is long and there's a fair amount of math. You did not play this hand well. I don't want to just say that and not back it up. Also, thinking about the hand in the following way could help you avoid stacking off like this in the future.

There are definite problems with the pre-flop play and the initial flop bet. But, I think we can ignore those issues for the time being. Those errors are cheap compared to the response to being raised on the flop. We'll focus on the most expensive mistake first. I am also going to ignore the SB and BB, assume they folded out of turn before you acted. When they are actually in the hand, it makes your profit from shoving less because there is a greater chance you're up against a slow-played better hand,

Since we bet $2 into $48, this raise does not necessarily signify great strength. It is also fairly small (less than half pot). Depending on your opponent, that could be threatening or meaningless. Some good players try and get you pot-stuck with great hands. You haven't mentioned any reads to that effect, so we'll assume that this player is betting all hands that are a pair of 10s or better. Those hands are: [TT-AA, AK, KQ, KJ, K9, QT, and J9]. There are 70 combinations of these hands. This is a pretty liberal and aggressive check-raising range on this board, I expect most players to bet fewer hands than this. But, the more hands this player will bet, the better the numbers are for you. I am trying to give your play the best benefit of the doubt. We'll look at a more in-line raising range after this.

Given that he would raise any of those hands, but probably only continue with the straight, sets, and two-pair (maybe 20% of the time), he will be folding 45 of the 70 hands he bets to your shove. That means, 64.29% of the time, you win the current pot ($76). We're also going to ignore the rake, because that further hurts your profits. You make $48.86 when he folds. The problem is, when he calls, you only have 33.78% equity in the hand. That means, you expect to get $162.12 from the $480 pot. But, it costs you $223 to shove. You lose $60.88 when you get all-in. Your net “profit” from shoving here is -$12.02.

And, that is in the best of all worlds. You're getting called by two-pair hands 12% of the time (less than 20% because two pair hands are not a huge part of his range), the blinds never slow-played a set or straight, and he was betting a lot of hands that he had to fold to your shove.

Clearly, getting all-in on the flop is a bad idea. This does not mean that I recommend a fold. As I was driving, it occurred to me that this is a situation where I am perfectly happy putting a lot of money in, against an aggressive player, as long as they are the one doing all the betting. I double checked my numbers when I got home, and the player doesn't even need to be massively aggressive to make calling once or even twice bad. Against someone betting this wide, you have 67.95% equity against their betting range. You could call this bet with a positive expectation. I would even call another bet on the turn or bet the river if he checked the turn and the river. I would be in a tough spot if he bet turn and shoved the river, especially on the board as it came out. I just don't think he's shoving worse unless he's super-aggressive. Still, calling here should show a profit. Shoving will only fold worse hands.

Against a tighter check-raising range on the flop, remove TT and reduce the number of one-pair combinations, your shove loses almost $30 in value. But calling still has a 57% expectation. So again, calling a couple streets here makes sense.

I have to call an end to this right now. I have been up for over 24 hours and am unable to think clearly anymore. One last thing, this is not a semi-bluff. A semi-bluff is when your bet can fold out better hands (your bet never folds better here) and, if you're called, you have outs to make the best hand (you have almost no equity when called by a better hand here). This is a suicide-bluff: you fold everything you beat, keep all the hands crushing you, and you have a snowball's chance in hell of improving against the hands that call you. You never want AK to fold here. You have 95.88% equity against that hand. You want AK to put as much money as possible into the pot.

If this doesn't make sense, I can explain my numbers, and how I arrived at them, a bit more tomorrow. Right now, I need sleep. Sorry about any typos or mistakes, in advance.
 
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This was a live, on-the-felt game. 1/2NL

50min200max

Reading your post vinnie and I take everything constructive, no hard feelings! If I couldn't handle people blowing up about my playing, I wouldn't play live.

I'm working on my technique like I said. It's interesting how it pisses people off when you purposely put yourself on a weaker hand and just cold call. But as someone pointed out, limping in with pocket 9's, and the play on the flop gave me absolutely no range at all. I was at the table for 5 hours prior to this hand, and knew that BB and SB would fold to a push, and figured that Villain may call with a weaker hand, chasing the straight or flush (as he did once before).

IMO:
(Pertaining to live play mostly)
Live play is a lot different than online play. If you put on the impression that you're playing the stats and not the people, you will do alright and most likely control the table... BUT everyone will be able to put you on a hand easier.
Now, if you put on the dumb-ass kid, "why is this game from texas" look like me, people will never be able to put you on a hand. If you purposely make big mistakes for a small loss, you're not on the tables shark list. Therefore you can really strike when the time is right, and I just picked the wrong time.

My strategy is still in development, so I'm not going to defend it. I will take the pointers on it though. The only thing that I will defend is that my technique has gotten better in the past 4 weeks when you look at the numbers. Not just overall winnings, but ROI on the top 15 hands. Most of the improvement is Live Play. My online play define tally needs a new strategy.
 
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Weffy

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of course to villian, that is an ridicilous call, and in the long run he will loose a lot, which site does this guy play i want some piece of him :)

Live play.

And you say Villian, but I had them switched in the original post. Which player? 99 or QT?


I hope this comes off as constructive criticism. I warn you, this is long and there's a fair amount of math. You did not play this hand well. I don't want to just say that and not back it up. Also, thinking about the hand in the following way could help you avoid stacking off like this
...
If this doesn't make sense, I can explain my numbers, and how I arrived at them, a bit more tomorrow. Right now, I need sleep. Sorry about any typos or mistakes, in advance.
Just gonna make a couple points before I read into this too far.
-Max rake is $6 at the table
-He was indeed playing a wide range. Won $100 pots with 2 pair multiple times. (I think it went to showdown once, but he always showed when it was folded to him and he had 2 pair)
-Still going over your ranges and numbers. I'd like to see more of a comparison of my range to his since I play players like this guy every weekend night.
-Thank you so much for taking the time.
 
Blobweird123

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Works 90% of the time. I always start short stacked, and work my way up to max buy in then leave... come back in a half hour buy in min again.

I read on past this post and noticed you said this was live? So you're really buying in short live, then building a stack and leaving. Then coming to the table with the min buyin again a half hour later? That is low man. Even online I hate people who hit n run, but live AND to come right back is ugly.
 
vinnie

vinnie

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-Still going over your ranges and numbers. I'd like to see more of a comparison of my range to his since I play players like this guy every weekend night.

Getting an exact handle on his range would be hard without much more information. But, generally, check-raising ranges on a flop with four people are rarely pure bluffs. So we can assume he is doing this with at least a pair that isn't lower than the board. That is where I started constructing his range. You may notice that I left a combination or two out, I was tired, from the hands that make a pair or better on the flop.

The thing is, when you shove $200+ more over his raise, his calling range narrows dramatically. Sure, he may bet two pair and have won a bunch of times with it. But, on a board like this, there's just not much you can be shoving that two pair beats enough to call with. There's no real draws out. That leaves flopped straights and sets as the majority of your shoving range. Unless he's daft, he should fold two pair. There's always a chance for people to do the unexpected, so I let the range call with 20% of the two pair combos.

You have to remember that calling ranges are generally tighter than betting ranges. I tend to be pretty aggressive (spewy even) from time to time. But, if someone raises me back, I am not going to keep playing unless I've actually got the hand to back it up. It happens all the time, I'm betting every flop and a guy folds every time until he finally hits a hand, bets into me, and I insta-fold.

Basically, to get his ranges really settled, we'll need to know how many hands he plays and how he plays them.

-Max rake is $6 at the table
Rake takes another $4 out of the above win-rates. You aren't paying the full $6 when he folds and when he calls, you're often not paying the rake at all (because he's winning the pot). This is why it's less than $6 in effect.

I was at the table for 5 hours prior to this hand, and knew that BB and SB would fold to a push, and figured that Villain may call with a weaker hand, chasing the straight or flush (as he did once before).

Would the SB or BB fold if they had QT for the straight? ;)

You and I both know they wouldn't. We also have no assurances that they don't have the straight, yet. I've played a lot of live $1/$2 and seen people wake up with the nuts in spots like this. I think they intended to slow-play. But, honestly, how often will that happen? Surely not often enough to have an effect on your expected win-rate? Actually, against a fairly standard live player (who plays like 30% of their hands) one of those two players will have the straight about 9% of the time. That costs you and additional $13 in expectation. The tighter a player is (up to on who is playing less than 17% of their hands -- insane for a live $1/$2) the more you lose. The looser they are, the less often they will show up with the straight, but it never drops to 0%. Even if they both play 100% of their hands, they will have the straight here 2% of the time. Anyway, I helped you out a lot by ignoring the times they could wake up with the nuts. It was not a small assumption. You need to be aware of who is still in the hand at all times.

What can UTG (Villain) be chasing on this flop? There's no flush draw on the flop and the only straights are gut-shots. There's just nothing to chase. All the hands that can call a shove are made hands. I know people call with bad odds, all the time, but there's just nothing offering any odds when they call here.
 
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Weffy

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I was thinking 8x10x with his raise and how he was acting at the table, but I'm going to quit while I'm behind here and just realize that he was slow playing the nuts right into my shove.

Thanks for all the insight.
 
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