When to lay down 2 pairs.

barracuuuda

barracuuuda

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I don't know about any of you guys, but playing 2 pairs seems to lose me money more than any rankings played. I don't know if i'm misplaying them or not. For example i like to toss a call here and there around tight players. I'm at the cutoff, the blinds are still young and I decide to call with 6h8h. The board flops 8d, Ks, 6c. I raise to 3x the BB everybody folds except the SB he reraises 6x the bb. In my mind I'm thinking i have a around 80% to win this hand wondering if he has Ace King to reraise me that much. So i call him and the turn reveals a 2c. The pot is around 460, i bet 230 and he reraises me all in. I called hoping he didn't have pocket KK,88,66,or 22. He reveals 8c As and im favored 86% and then a king hits the board and screws me over. I learned a very good lesson and thats to be more cautious when playing with 2 pairs. What would you guys have done?
 
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AvaloNNN

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Check the turn behind for pot control, and then when another king hits the river just fold if you are faced with big bet.
 
barracuuuda

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Check the turn behind for pot control, and then when another king hits the river just fold if you are faced with big bet.
The right option was to bet especially being favored 86%, I pretty much got slapped with another bad beat :/
 
Daniel72

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I learned :
- two pair is the average winning hand in Texas Holdem (from theory)
- but bottom two pair is very very vulnerable (from my games)
 
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luckyhearts

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Don't play 68 suited. Depending on how deep you are in the tournament, I would shove when 2p hits unless you are close to the bubble or have enough chips to fold it. (assuming small stakes, might be a bit more cautious in a big buy game)
 
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jasonv12

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There are a lot of factors missing, but by betting both the flop and the turn, you HAVE to commit your stack. Even if you are usually good, you won't be good enough or won't not get unlucky enough to justify this. I would have check called the flop and again on the turn if you were against an aggro player, or just bet the flop and check the turn if you're against a calling station. Two is a very average winning holdem hand tho.
 
Michael Paler

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Some things cannot be helped, like getting sucked out to trips by a guy with only one pair. Or a guy with an ace and getting board screwed like you did.

However, I always use the most caution with two pairs when there is a single overcard. While trips are always possible, I'm more leery of the overs. If they flop a set you will know because they will most likely wait for you to bet so they can raise. With an overcard giving someone top pair, they will often call even if given bad pot odds, unless it's a scary board. Problem with that is, it will be scary for you as well! With top pair, now they have a good chance to outdraw you if the board pairs runner runner or they hit their kicker, which very well could be higher or lower than either of your pairs - it doesn't matter, they have that top pair already.

When I get nasty with my two pair is when I also have a backdoor straight (not to the dumb end) or a flush to go with it. Then if I get called, I still have more outs than with "just" two pair, which is only 4. Then, If I think the guy might be drawing to a better 2 pair, I'll know I'm going to make some chips if he hits his second card. Hopefully, his second card also completes my st8. That's just a pure joy-gasim right there buddy.

Just last night I watched a guy flop top two (Q-10) on a K-10-Q board. After a substantial Cbet failed to make one opponent fold, he bet big again on the turn, which was a Ace. After getting re-raised, I knew what happened; the guy had to have a J. What else could he re-raise with? And most likely he wouldn't bluff at that board...so, the guy with Q-10 then shoved, and sure enough, they guy called and showed a J (J rag, to make matters worse) for a straight. The other guy probably knew he was beat, but was hoping to hit his 4 outer, which is never good, frankly.

All told, you did learn a very good lesson. Your 2 pair can get counterfeited by overcards, either on the board or in the guys hand. Even a turn/river runner runner pair like 9-9 or just another K would have killed you (You, 8-8-9-9-K vs Him 8-8-9-9-A OR You, 8-8-K-K-6 vs Him 8-8-K-K-A) This also happens when someone with a pocket pair and a board pair gets stubborn, when the board pairs again and counterfeits the 2 pair they have!
 
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EvertonGirl

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I very rarely win a pot when I have 2 pairs.

I do remember folding to a guy who raised a bit too much for my liking, I folded my two pairs only to get a full house on the next card lol.

That's the way the cookie crumbles :D
 
LuckyBundy13

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Your bet sizing sucks given the situation. Betting half the pot is the same as checking. As played, you deserved to get sucked out on. GG and on to the next one.
 
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ph0n3_j4ck

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2 pairs are only good against very loose aggressive players. Majority of the time if you're up against a tight player, you're gonna end up losing. However, if you bet to tell the other player you're ahead, you might be able to drag the pot earlier.
 
Michael Paler

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The board flops 8d, Ks, 6c. I raise to 3x the BB everybody folds except the SB he reraises 6x the bb.

Second thought, I probably would have shoved all in to that 6x 3-bet (4-bet it) on the flop If I knew this guy was capable of 3 betting with only middle pair, top kicker, and was a good player. What are the odds he has K-8 or K-6? Not good, really - we both flop 2 pair? Unlikely. Does he have KK? Again, unlikely, as he didn't raise pre-flop. He sounds super aggressive, so most likely he was trying to bluff you by rep'ing either top pair or a set. So, if you shove first, then HE would have to be worried about that K on the board and only middle pair. Yet, if he thinks you are on a draw, then he still might call. Actually, only calling his 6x 3-bet might have done just that-made him think you were drawing-which is why I would have shoved the flop, to let him know I am not. Then the deuce brick hits and he shoves to make you not want to chase it.

Then again, If he is a known calling station or a donkey, I don't see how you could get away from your hand after the way you played it, and he still might have called your flop shove with only one crappy middle pair (many, many would) and top kicker. He actually just got real lucky, either way.
 
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barracuuuda

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Your bet sizing sucks given the situation. Betting half the pot is the same as checking. As played, you deserved to get sucked out on. GG and on to the next one.
yeah i need to learn how to play hands like these more efficiently.
 
barracuuuda

barracuuuda

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Second thought, I probably would have shoved all in to that 6x 3-bet (4-bet it) on the flop If I knew this guy was capable of 3 betting with only middle pair, top kicker, and was a good player. What are the odds he has K-8 or K-6? Not good, really - we both flop 2 pair? Unlikely. Does he have KK? Again, unlikely, as he didn't raise pre-flop. He sounds super aggressive, so most likely he was trying to bluff you by rep'ing either top pair or a set. So, if you shove first, then HE would have to be worried about that K on the board and only middle pair. Yet, if he thinks you are on a draw, then he still might call. Actually, only calling his 6x 3-bet might have done just that-made him think you were drawing-which is why I would have shoved the flop, to let him know I am not. Then the deuce brick hits and he shoves to make you not want to chase it.

Then again, If he is a known calling station or a donkey, I don't see how you could get away from your hand after the way you played it, and he still might have called your flop shove with only one crappy middle pair (many, many would) and top kicker. He actually just got real lucky, either way.

Well I'm still really young so I got plenty of time to deal with bad beats and improve my game. Thanks for the advice and I'll improve overtime lol
 
luckytvguy

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2 pairs are only good against very loose aggressive players. Majority of the time if you're up against a tight player, you're gonna end up losing. However, if you bet to tell the other player you're ahead, you might be able to drag the pot earlier.
Concise and comprehensive.So it depend.Situation,opponents,stack size.How to judge these factors is more difficult.
 
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best time to lay down two pair is when villain makes weird raises and huge bets. you have to be deep in reading ability to know when two pair is dead in water. always know your opponent and their range.
 
fletchdad

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What would you guys have done?

First off, I wouldn't call with 6 8s. Unless you have a good reason too, and cause its early and you want to see a cheap flop is NOT a good reason. (Cant really think of one TBO) Tossing a call here and there around tight players??? WTF for? They may just raise you. Well, how do you like your 6 8 now? Or call behind with better hands (like A 8)? Calling "just to toss it around" is terrible.

Take this hand as a lesson. The lesson should be clear.

Toss your trash and make life fun.
 
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marcumx

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i don't see how the bet size sucked. i would have checked call if the villian didn't bet too big. two pairs are def over rated and people over play them a lot. unless it's top 2, i always check call..i think the only mistake was calling the all in. i would have folded to fight another day. nothing can prevent luck.
Today, i'd got blinded down. five away from cashing, and i get A 8. next hand i'd be all in in the BB so i use this hand to shove and get one call with q 3. flop is A 8 Q. awesome. 4 (cool) then Q. i'm out. i think i made the correct play just bad board.
 
dudemanstan

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I don't know about any of you guys, but playing 2 pairs seems to lose me money more than any rankings played. I don't know if i'm misplaying them or not. For example i like to toss a call here and there around tight players. I'm at the cutoff, the blinds are still young and I decide to call with 6h8h. The board flops 8d, Ks, 6c. I raise to 3x the BB everybody folds except the SB he reraises 6x the bb. In my mind I'm thinking i have a around 80% to win this hand wondering if he has Ace King to reraise me that much. So i call him and the turn reveals a 2c. The pot is around 460, i bet 230 and he reraises me all in. I called hoping he didn't have pocket KK,88,66,or 22. He reveals 8c As and im favored 86% and then a king hits the board and screws me over. I learned a very good lesson and thats to be more cautious when playing with 2 pairs. What would you guys have done?


1st I think your opponent was a bad player betting the way he did with middle pair, and he sucked out on you.

2nd maybe if you bet a little stronger on the flop,but a bad player might call anyway, but still either way your favored to win.

3rd . 86 isn't really a hand you want to play but small blind limp in, i do that to sometimes.

I think you played the flop and turn the right way, you just limped in with a questionable hand, hit a good flop against a bad player. So questionable hand pre flop for a cheap limp in against bad player post flop = :( sometimes.
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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He wasnt SB, he limped from the CO.

Limping from the SB is also pretty terrible, unless you have multiple callers already, and the BB is passive enough to let this happen.
 
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