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Approximately 10bb's is definitely in the ckear danger zone and shove or fold mode for me. I start looking for my shove hand a bit before that - especially as the blinds get closer to me - even if I am not down to 10x bb's yet.
Mase31683
Legend
Silver Level
If you're talking tournaments, I like using M. The number of times you can pay the blinds with your stack.
Ex blinds are 50/100 and you have 300chips, M=2
If blinds are 50/100 and you have 975chips, M=6.5
M =< 5, you're extremely short and need to push
The closer you are to a danger zone M, the more actively you should be looking for good situations to try and use whatever FE you have left to accumulate some chips.
Ex blinds are 50/100 and you have 300chips, M=2
If blinds are 50/100 and you have 975chips, M=6.5
M =< 5, you're extremely short and need to push
The closer you are to a danger zone M, the more actively you should be looking for good situations to try and use whatever FE you have left to accumulate some chips.
suit2please
Visionary
Silver Level
M is better also because it will take small blind and all the antes into effect.
so, 9 handed, 50/100 ante 10 then 1 round = 240 chips. your stack 1200. 1200/240 = 5
To me 5 and below is push fold territoy. 5-10 is like the warning zone and 10+ your in decent shape. Don't really like looking at it in terms of Big Blinds
so, 9 handed, 50/100 ante 10 then 1 round = 240 chips. your stack 1200. 1200/240 = 5
To me 5 and below is push fold territoy. 5-10 is like the warning zone and 10+ your in decent shape. Don't really like looking at it in terms of Big Blinds
T
ted80
Rock Star
Silver Level
i guesstimate my M. not that hard to do real quick, give or take, you know when its shove time. even if most seem fairly even to your stack and fold, just getting those blinds make just a little bit of a difference, this is for sng/tourney
kidkvno1
Sarah's Pet
Bronze Level
SavagePenguin
Put the win in penguin
Bronze Level
Chips = power = options
At 10 bb's you generally have enough chips to hurt a player if he calls, so shoving makes a win without ever seeing the flop more probable. You have fold equity, because people with better hands are apt to fold.
Let's say you had 10 bb's fold a few more rounds. Now you're down to 5 or 6 bb's. At this point people will call you with just about anything. Likewise, you can't afford to lose any more chips so you'll have to make a move.
If you double, well, you only have 10 bb's again. Big whoop. A few rounds without lucky cards and you are impotent again.
Now, let's say that you shove with 10 bb's instead with an iffy hand (T/J), and get called by a better hand (A/7), so you're only 45% to win. Well, if you win you'll be at around 23 bb's (depending on antes and such) and can fold ten rounds in a row waiting for a good hand before you're at that "desperate" 10 bb place again. And for all of those 10 hands you have substantiall more chips (more power).
That is a very good position to be in, and well worth going in as an underdog.
So, for 5% less than a coin flip you get to see twice as many hands, and have more chips (more power) during those hands.
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ckingriches
Lucky Multiple League MVP
Silver Level
I'm definitely in the minority with how low I'll let my stack get before I'm willing to push with just anything. I've had some good luck waiting a little longer, when I'm actually favored to win instead of just hoping to outdraw a better hand to have a few more blinds. I've won a few tourneys using that patience as luck turned around and helped me out too. I certainly don't blame anyone for pushing with 15 or more bb's, but I'm willing to wait it out, even down to 5, depending on the table "environment".
DetroitJimmy
Legend
Silver Level
I like using M more than BB myself. It is more accurate when antes are considered. Also has to do with the first poker book I read being HOH I'm sure.
I still use Harrington's guidelines in my SST and MTT play. They are as follows:
M 20 or more : Deep or green zone. Open to wide range of moves. This is where you want to be so take some chances to stay there.
M 10 - 20 : Yellow zone. Suited connectors and small pocket pairs start losing value.
M 5 - 10 : Orange zone. SC and small PP lose even more value. Pushing should be considered when raising.
M 1 -5 : Red zone. Small pocket pairs gain value back and should be pushed in any unopened pot. If your M reaches 3 you must push with all but the worst of hands in an unopened pot.
I know this isn't exactly as in the book, but it's close. There are a few more details in there and I don't follow this exactly when I'm playing. BTW, when it comes to me pushing a mediocre hand when I'm close to the red zone, I would much rather push something like 10 7 suited than a weak ace. Much less chance of being dominated if someone calls IMHO.
I still use Harrington's guidelines in my SST and MTT play. They are as follows:
M 20 or more : Deep or green zone. Open to wide range of moves. This is where you want to be so take some chances to stay there.
M 10 - 20 : Yellow zone. Suited connectors and small pocket pairs start losing value.
M 5 - 10 : Orange zone. SC and small PP lose even more value. Pushing should be considered when raising.
M 1 -5 : Red zone. Small pocket pairs gain value back and should be pushed in any unopened pot. If your M reaches 3 you must push with all but the worst of hands in an unopened pot.
I know this isn't exactly as in the book, but it's close. There are a few more details in there and I don't follow this exactly when I'm playing. BTW, when it comes to me pushing a mediocre hand when I'm close to the red zone, I would much rather push something like 10 7 suited than a weak ace. Much less chance of being dominated if someone calls IMHO.
Maid Marian
RIP Baby BooBoo
Silver Level
Thanks for the information...I'm relatively new to Poker...only in my 7th week ever playing...this information will help me in my next tourney...coming up in 35 minutes at FT! Hopefully I'll see the usefulness of it and use it to my advantage!
E
eddy2009
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I would say if you have 20BB left from your stack or less then you short stacked, but to be properlly short stacked you need to be at the point where you will not be able to take many more big blings before going all in.
200bb from 2000 chips depends on what the blinds are.
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
It really depends alot upon the particular tourney you're playing... ie. in some tourneys when you're deep in the tourney the avg. stack size might actually only be around 10bb's (sometimes even less!!). You need to keep in mind what the other stack sizes are.. and how your stack relates to them.. not just the blinds (<<< although this is your major determining factor.. the 'blinds' that is). ie.... in the Cardschat Titan buyin, avg. stack size on the bubble is usually alot less than 10bb's.. due to the payout structure, players are tightening up & blinding down and when there's many of them it affects what your open-shoving range might become.
Generally speaking, if your stack is down to 10bb's you are short and if you're able to be first into a pot, you should just shove.
A stack-size of 14-25bb's (under typical circumstances in MTT's online) is getting there but is what is considered a 're-steal size stack'. Here you should be looking to shove over another player who appears to be raising often in an effort to steal the blinds (hint.. .you want to shove over this player on a stack of this size.... not flat call in hopes of hitting the flop).
In a Turbo SNG (9plyr.), being short-stacked in late levels usually means being lower than 10bb's for sure and actually there are many situations where having 3bb+ might (will) still be enough to give you some fold equity) << I'm talking HIGH blinds. In Collin Moshmann's book on SNG Strategy there are many references to Turbo HighBlind play where ShortStacks typically have way less than 10bb's on average.
Generally speaking, if your stack is down to 10bb's you are short and if you're able to be first into a pot, you should just shove.
A stack-size of 14-25bb's (under typical circumstances in MTT's online) is getting there but is what is considered a 're-steal size stack'. Here you should be looking to shove over another player who appears to be raising often in an effort to steal the blinds (hint.. .you want to shove over this player on a stack of this size.... not flat call in hopes of hitting the flop).
In a Turbo SNG (9plyr.), being short-stacked in late levels usually means being lower than 10bb's for sure and actually there are many situations where having 3bb+ might (will) still be enough to give you some fold equity) << I'm talking HIGH blinds. In Collin Moshmann's book on SNG Strategy there are many references to Turbo HighBlind play where ShortStacks typically have way less than 10bb's on average.
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
In some spots... 'yes'. Of course it also depends on the table you're on. Generally speaking though, the problem that arises with this strategy is, you're waiting for a hand you feel will hold up and by waiting so long you have often given up potential fold equity and are now counting on your hand to hold & win (how often have you blinded down to say 6 or 7 bb's on the bubble of a SNG only to wake up w KK QQ & shove, get called by whatever & lose). Also, by doing so you still only double up to a stack that is still pretty much a shortstack and still in trouble.
Big advantage of shoving w weaker hands but on more bb's is obviously for the sake of having fold equity. This doesn't just add a few blinds to your stack,.. it keeps you from dying by blinding out. It also helps to set yourself up for when you do wake up w the KK and then shove ALLIN as you would with anyother hand (not all of a sudden begin raising 2.5x on a 10bb stack...way too transparent), in hopes of getting paid off. There are many other reasons to begin shoving on or around 10bb's in say a reg. speed SNG but not going to get into the math of it here... suffice to say it is +EV in the longrun.
PurgatoryD
Visionary
Silver Level
I know when I get down to 10BB, I'm just looking for an opportunity to shove. There's really not much "playing" you can do any more. So for me, that is very SS. When I'm about double that, I'm worried. So I consider 20BB to be SS and 10BB to be danger.
Good question... it really made be think about it.
-Dave
Good question... it really made be think about it.
-Dave
