What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

#1 April 15th, 2020, 9:00 PM

What is ICM is a question I wanted an answer to when I first started getting serious about playing tournaments. It stands for "Independent Chip Model" - but what is it?

If you have not yet read Day 14 and watched the video for Day 14 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:

What is ICM?

ICM converts chips to dollar equities so you can make money winning decisions. Collins goes thought this process in an easy to understand way - if there is anything you don't understand about ICM feel free to ask him or Katie in this thread.
What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

#2 April 25th, 2020, 1:23 AM

ICM software was not allowed during game play when they first came out because the algorithms essentially made any dope a winning player. Back when Titan Poker had their jackpot SNG's, my way of playing was to wait for the another player to make a first mistake or somehow contrive a situation to make this happen and then patiently cut them to ribbons.
Understanding what to do and how to do it is contingent upon knowing exactly when to do it.
For example, understanding when a player is on tilt or when a player has been "scared straight"...the opposite of tilt...etc. The ICM model initializes with all players existing at the same skill level which is never the case. Only when the skill levels are weighted appropriately can certain plays be made...GIGO (garbage in garbage out is expensive). Have you used SNG Wizard and if so, any opinions?

#3 May 2nd, 2020, 8:54 PM

I remember there was another way to convert chips into money yet. Is it not used anymore? And I'm not sure how hands influence on ICM. I thought ICM is only about a deal?

Anyway, I asked to deal 2 times and noone wanted....

#4 May 4th, 2020, 7:39 PM

I guess ICM theory is what we instinctively do when ITM and about to reach a pay-jump. If other stacks are short and more likely to bust we avoid confrontation with anything but premiums. I'm still familiarising myself with ICM and I would like to ask you as a fellow mathematician if there are any free accessible theory analyses about that and "Nash Equilibrium".
Keep up the great work!

#5 May 4th, 2020, 9:39 PM

Originally Posted by Polytarp

ICM software was not allowed during game play when they first came out because the algorithms essentially made any dope a winning player. Back when Titan Poker had their jackpot SNG's, my way of playing was to wait for the another player to make a first mistake or somehow contrive a situation to make this happen and then patiently cut them to ribbons.
Understanding what to do and how to do it is contingent upon knowing exactly when to do it.
For example, understanding when a player is on tilt or when a player has been "scared straight"...the opposite of tilt...etc. The ICM model initializes with all players existing at the same skill level which is never the case. Only when the skill levels are weighted appropriately can certain plays be made...GIGO (garbage in garbage out is expensive). Have you used SNG Wizard and if so, any opinions?

Good question: SNG Wizard is good software but not as useful as more modern alternatives like ICMizer.

#6 May 4th, 2020, 9:41 PM

Originally Posted by cheeeer

I remember there was another way to convert chips into money yet. Is it not used anymore? And I'm not sure how hands influence on ICM. I thought ICM is only about a deal?

Anyway, I asked to deal 2 times and noone wanted....

I don't know of another way besides ICM. And no, that's great you asked because it's a common idea that ICM is just for deals but it's a lot more than that What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

Any time we're trying to make an equity-maximizing decision, like whether calling an all-in at a final table is profitable in dollar terms, we need ICM for that.

#7 May 5th, 2020, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by PsychoVas

...and "Nash Equilibrium".

https://library.princeton.edu/specia...Games_Nash.pdf

#8 May 5th, 2020, 12:55 PM

ICMizer programs and calculator will greatly simplify your life. But without such programs, the head is completely filled with math during tournament hands. I don't use programs while playing games. But it was interesting to read nevertheless. Thanks!

#9 May 5th, 2020, 8:22 PM

Originally Posted by Collin Moshman

I don't know of another way besides ICM.

Oh, chip chop, remembered. Though rarely fair.

#10 May 7th, 2020, 7:51 PM

Very interesting, however, I don't quite understand how this helps. It's not really something one can use at the tables, surely?

In some ways, though, I think I (probably most half-decent tourney players) do some of this stuff kind of instinctively? For example, say you have ATs and would normally raise or even reraise depending on position, player types, etc. Now say two, three or more other players look like they want to battle it out with allins (or seem prepared to) preflop; in this situation, unless I have them well and truly covered, I will quite often fold and let them, knowing that one or more players will leaave the tournament and I risk nothing. Isn't that, kind of, like ICM?

I've never really understood it. I've tried, but don't see how it helps beyond working out prize money - maybe I'm just dumb? What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

#11 May 8th, 2020, 5:07 PM

Finished Day #14.

Good reminder that ICM doesn't apply to winner-takes-all tournaments. Definitely not a simple tournament concept, and it needs a a decent amount of hours of study for someone to become familiar with this.

Answers to today's quiz:

i)1.13/100 x 250$ = 0.013 x 250$ = 2.825$
ii)They will increased.
iii)Failed to answer this question. What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

Finished Week #2 of the Training Course.

A break the weekend and back on Monday with the first day of Week #3.

What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

#12 May 10th, 2020, 1:17 PM

Enjoy the weekend off Luvart!

Cferdi, ICM is useful for figuring out shove/fold/call ranges at all stages of the game where stacks are shallow enough. But I agree that there's an instinctual component. You can learn more with software, but there are definitely old-school players who have a good intuitive grasp of these concepts. So that's a good point too.

#13 May 10th, 2020, 9:21 PM

This was a hard leasson,in cash we play with money,there are no chips or pay jumps u get excactly wath you win, but in Sitn Gos and MTT is diferent because the pay jumps gets very big when we aproach the top 3 players

#14 May 12th, 2020, 8:16 PM

This chapter reminded me of a bubble play where I was about the 6th largest stack in the tourney and decided to play my AK hand to a rainbow flop of 2 8 K and busted out in tenth when villain tabled 88 What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

. A lesson hard learnt. The player with 500 chips was very grateful I imagine!
Response to video question:

The player with 100 in chips has a dollar value of $2.83 (1.13/100 x $250)

If the player with 4500 busts out then the equity is as follows:

100 chips - 20.4 %
4500 chips - 36.5 %
8900 chips - 43.1 %

Another good reminder of the importance of discipline from this chapter. It was fun using those online tools as well.

#15 May 13th, 2020, 2:32 AM

Almost everything in this one was new for me. Prior to this course, I knew that "ICM" stood for "Independent Chip Model" and that it had something to do with tournaments, but that was it. Now I understand it conceptually a bit better. As someone who has only played small home games so far, this was all new content for me.

Thanks for sharing; glad to learn more What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

#16 May 17th, 2020, 6:35 PM

i don't like this video.
it's speak about common stuff and not very useful information while playing poker...

What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

#17 May 17th, 2020, 6:44 PM

Originally Posted by Phoenix Wright

Almost everything in this one was new for me. Prior to this course, I knew that "ICM" stood for "Independent Chip Model" and that it had something to do with tournaments, but that was it. Now I understand it conceptually a bit better. As someone who has only played small home games so far, this was all new content for me.

Thanks for sharing; glad to learn more What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

Nice to hear you learned something new!

Originally Posted by karmakoumas

i don't like this video.
it's speak about common stuff and not very useful information while playing poker...

What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

Do you not play tournaments? Cause if you do it is very useful. What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

#18 May 17th, 2020, 7:04 PM

Do you not play tournaments? Cause if you do it is very useful. What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

[/QUOTE]

yes i play, but us i said this video speaks about common things perhaps usefull information but it's not usefull to improve our poker skills

#19 May 18th, 2020, 9:51 PM

Karma, for many players this info will be new, but if you already know the content in a given Day's section then of course feel free to skip it over What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

#20 May 27th, 2020, 1:57 AM

What should be our main take away from this lesson?
Let's say that a ICM-software gives us the optimal shoving range. Does that make our opponent's range and what we think it might be less important?

One can often hear on Twitch a higher stakes player thinking out loud if this or that spot was a good one ICM-wise. Would it be useful to learn some spots by heart or is there just too much room for mistakes?

#21 May 27th, 2020, 7:14 PM

Originally Posted by Nafor

What should be our main take away from this lesson?
Let's say that a ICM-software gives us the optimal shoving range. Does that make our opponent's range and what we think it might be less important?

One can often hear on Twitch a higher stakes player thinking out loud if this or that spot was a good one ICM-wise. Would it be useful to learn some spots by heart or is there just too much room for mistakes?

We should take the software-generated range unless there's a good reason to do something else, such as us shoving wider when we know our opponent calls much too tight.

Learning some very common spots by heart is a great idea, like shoving first in with 10bb in the small blind and button in an MTT.

#22 June 4th, 2020, 7:17 PM

The topic is interesting and not so simple. You can make the right decisions out of general considerations: for example, you need to call a shove in pre-flop or it is more profitable to wait until several players leave the tournament.
Chips get the value in dollar terms only if you get into the prize area.

#23 June 5th, 2020, 7:26 PM

Thanks for this informative chapter and video. I just want to add to people new to ICM software like me that you should only use it while studying poker not whilst playing a tournament. I just discovered that most sites can actually suspend your account if you use ICM software during a game. Of course, it is very useful and educational before and after tourneys and thanks again for this easy to understand introduction

#24 June 20th, 2020, 6:19 PM

I have also heard of this in terms of 'risk premium' when it comes to calling/making all-ins. Specifically how much "money" do you risk giving up if you bust with your current stack. For instance, in the book's example of calling a 10bb small blind shove w/A2 if you're in 5/10 place with 11bb you're essentially risking a high percent chance of laddering, so you'd need even more equity to call. It's probably beyond the scope of this book, but it's an interesting rabbit hole.

#25 June 21st, 2020, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by johnnylawford

I have also heard of this in terms of 'risk premium' when it comes to calling/making all-ins. Specifically how much "money" do you risk giving up if you bust with your current stack. For instance, in the book's example of calling a 10bb small blind shove w/A2 if you're in 5/10 place with 11bb you're essentially risking a high percent chance of laddering, so you'd need even more equity to call. It's probably beyond the scope of this book, but it's an interesting rabbit hole.

Great point, there are different ways of looking at this including risk premium and bubble factor. ICMizer actually has a cool feature where it will display your bubble factor when you're doing calculations.

This would be a nice topic for future content What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

#26 June 21st, 2020, 3:08 PM

Another interesting day�s training on ICM, which is something I have been award of but haven�t used that much. It�s certainly something that is worth knowing and understanding better so I�m off to ICM to get the calculator and work my way through some scenarios.

#27 June 23rd, 2020, 10:07 PM

Haven't used ICM or any technology much... the most I've done is use push/fold charts with stack size in BB. That being said, the Nash calculator looked super interesting when calculating ranges using stack size and blinds. I'm definitely going to run a few scenarios through it to deepen my knowledge.

#28 June 29th, 2020, 3:43 PM

Could you explain how to read the push/fold range strategies on Holdemresources? I'm a bit confused.

Say I calculated the attached example. When I put in everyone, it assigns position - so is this only for this particular position, and then you need to put everyone in again, shifted?

And then in the chart, what is PU, CA, OC? and all the positions listed, how do I read it?

#29 June 29th, 2020, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by lollipopas

Could you explain how to read the push/fold range strategies on Holdemresources? I'm a bit confused.

Say I calculated the attached example. When I put in everyone, it assigns position - so is this only for this particular position, and then you need to put everyone in again, shifted?

And then in the chart, what is PU, CA, OC? and all the positions listed, how do I read it?

PU = Pusher
CA = Caller
OC = Overcaller (Range for Calling once there's already been a shove and call)

Here's how you'd read your screenshot:

** UTG should shove 7.2% of hands.

** If UTG does shove, UTG+1 should re-shove with 4.7% of hands.

** If UTG and UTG+1 both go all-in, MP1 should shove with JJ+.

** If UTG shoves and UTG+1 folds, MP1 should shove with JJ+ and AK.

Continuing down, we'll get to UTG+1 being in the PU column which is his first-in range.

I hope that explanation makes sense, feel free to post for more elaboration!

#30 July 7th, 2020, 5:09 PM

Important explanation in this video presented to help improve your game and learn from it, because it will probably refine our decisions in future tournaments.

#31 July 7th, 2020, 10:01 PM

Thank you very much for this material, many times I have made mistakes for not being clear about the ICM concept, but now I will make better decisions in the future.

#32 July 21st, 2020, 10:07 PM

I think the ICM varies a lot from tournament to tournament. so determined the value of your chips

#33 July 21st, 2020, 10:41 PM

ICM helps a lot to make good decisions but for me, is not all in poker, yhere are many other variations that must be taken into account!

#34 July 22nd, 2020, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by ammje

Thank you very much for this material, many times I have made mistakes for not being clear about the ICM concept, but now I will make better decisions in the future.

That�s so great to hear, thanks!

#35 July 27th, 2020, 12:05 PM

ICM ranges are hard to learn, but after spending some time they really improve your understanding of the game. I read the suggestions for learning ICM on this forum, but I didn't think how important it is. Now I am using an ICM trainer to improve my push-fold skills. Thank you, Collin and Katie.

#36 July 30th, 2020, 11:12 PM

This was a hard leasson,in cash we play with money,there are no chips or pay jumps u get excactly wath you win, but in Sitn Gos and MTT is diferent because the pay jumps gets very big when we aproach the top 3 players

#37 July 31st, 2020, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by Coinuss

ICM ranges are hard to learn, but after spending some time they really improve your understanding of the game. I read the suggestions for learning ICM on this forum, but I didn't think how important it is. Now I am using an ICM trainer to improve my push-fold skills. Thank you, Collin and Katie.

That�s awesome that you�re using an ICM trainer to help you study, I�m sure you�ll have great gains and good luck with it! What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

#38 July 31st, 2020, 1:13 PM

Originally Posted by freddydr87

This was a hard leasson,in cash we play with money,there are no chips or pay jumps u get excactly wath you win, but in Sitn Gos and MTT is diferent because the pay jumps gets very big when we aproach the top 3 players

When people ask me what the biggest difference between cash and tournament poker is, my answer is simply �ICM,� so don�t worry�it makes total sense that this would be a difficult concept as a cash player new to the tournament scene.

Great to get your perspective on this as a cash player, please just let us know if you have any questions along the way! What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

#39 July 31st, 2020, 4:34 PM

I did not understand anything about the ICM (independent chip model) I had seen it before but I had not read about it; Now I know that it can help in decision making.

#40 October 13th, 2020, 4:27 PM

Originally Posted by Katie Dozier

When people ask me what the biggest difference between cash and tournament poker is, my answer is simply �ICM,� so don�t worry�it makes total sense that this would be a difficult concept as a cash player new to the tournament scene.

Great to get your perspective on this as a cash player, please just let us know if you have any questions along the way! What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

Good time of day. I had heard about ICM before and seen it on video streams, but I didn't really understand what it was. In this video tutorial, everything is described in great detail and examples are provided as an explanation. Thank you for the detailed analysis! What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

Life is a game , play beautiful

#41 October 13th, 2020, 6:24 PM

You can usually tell if somebody is complementing you on your ICM usage if they call you a "shove monkey" or a "bingo player". Which is also a good way to tell if they understand ICM and how light they may shoving/calling.

#42 October 14th, 2020, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by TeUnit

You can usually tell if somebody is complementing you on your ICM usage if they call you a "shove monkey" or a "bingo player". Which is also a good way to tell if they understand ICM and how light they may shoving/calling.

Great to see you TeUnit and that is very true What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

Another fun one is: "how do you go all-in with just a pair of 6's??"

Chat definitely reveals a lot!

#43 October 23rd, 2020, 1:57 PM

"A hair over"?! I laughed hard about it, Statunitians always surprising me with the creativeness for them to find ways of measure things.

Anw, amazing class, like it very much the concept and mainly it's application for big decisions like when to shove.

#44 November 10th, 2020, 6:11 PM

It is important to know the exact correlation between tokens (ICM) and money.
ICM is also very practical when it comes to deals in poker tournaments.

#45 December 15th, 2020, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by Katie Dozier

When people ask me what the biggest difference between cash and tournament poker is, my answer is simply “ICM,” so don’t worry—it makes total sense that this would be a difficult concept as a cash player new to the tournament scene.

Great to get your perspective on this as a cash player, please just let us know if you have any questions along the way! What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

Originally Posted by Collin Moshman

Great to see you TeUnit and that is very true What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

Another fun one is: "how do you go all-in with just a pair of 6's??"

Chat definitely reveals a lot!

And what is the more correct way to get into the prizes often, but the tactic is not to fly out of the tournament? And as a rule, we are talking about the last prize places.
Or take risks constantly, thinking or all or nothing. Or 1 place or no matter what?
And I understand correctly that the most comfortable amount of big blinds for a game is 50+?
Ok, if we are talking about prize places. I have 10 big blinds and 5 more people will be eliminated from tournaments (lose) and I will be in the prizes. Does it make sense to put the entire stack all in, even with a pair of queens? Or is it better to wait until 5 people fly out and then exhibit (all-in)?
I ask why. I had a bad experience at fairly large tournaments - there was only one place left before the prizes. I got 2 queens, my stack is 9 big blinds. I'm in the button position, everyone folds to me. I am all in and my opponent in the big blind is all in too. Ironically, he has 2 aces. and I lost. Just one place before hitting the prizes. Yes, this prize for last paid place was of only 2 starting buy-ins, but it's still a shame.
What do you think about this? Looking forward to your response. What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

#46 December 15th, 2020, 2:34 PM

I feel that few people have gone through this topic. Comparing to the forum of the first 3 topics (week 1), where posts are 20 pages, there is only one page. But I will write everywhere if I went through this topic. Sometimes it is not possible to study the course consistently, but I will go through it all!)

#47 December 15th, 2020, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Pichman189

And what is the more correct way to get into the prizes often, but the tactic is not to fly out of the tournament? And as a rule, we are talking about the last prize places.
Or take risks constantly, thinking or all or nothing. Or 1 place or no matter what?
And I understand correctly that the most comfortable amount of big blinds for a game is 50+?
Ok, if we are talking about prize places. I have 10 big blinds and 5 more people will be eliminated from tournaments (lose) and I will be in the prizes. Does it make sense to put the entire stack all in, even with a pair of queens? Or is it better to wait until 5 people fly out and then exhibit (all-in)?
I ask why. I had a bad experience at fairly large tournaments - there was only one place left before the prizes. I got 2 queens, my stack is 9 big blinds. I'm in the button position, everyone folds to me. I am all in and my opponent in the big blind is all in too. Ironically, he has 2 aces. and I lost. Just one place before hitting the prizes. Yes, this prize for last paid place was of only 2 starting buy-ins, but it's still a shame.
What do you think about this? Looking forward to your response. What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

It's usually a mistake to be that tight approaching the money. Your finish distribution will have a lot of min-cashes and too few high finishes where most of the money is. With a strong hand and short stack, go for it!

#48 December 29th, 2020, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Collin Moshman

It's usually a mistake to be that tight approaching the money. Your finish distribution will have a lot of min-cashes and too few high finishes where most of the money is. With a strong hand and short stack, go for it!

Yesterday I finished my session with ITM 11% and ROI 12%, but 2 days ago ITM 33% and ROI 45% and 3d dai ROI -100% What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

What is the average ROI and ITM for SNG 0.25 $ 45 max?

#49 December 29th, 2020, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Pichman189

Yesterday I finished my session with ITM 11% and ROI 12%, but 2 days ago ITM 33% and ROI 45% and 3d dai ROI -100% What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

What is the average ROI and ITM for SNG 0.25 $ 45 max?

Short term swings can be pretty big!

Overall the average ROI will be a loss of the rake (so around -10% depending on the exact $0.25 45-man vig which I'm not sure of off the top of my head) and ITM will be 7/45 ~ 16%. Among regs though, I would think the average ROI would be around 30% for a fairly soft field that most micro SNGs get.

#50 December 29th, 2020, 3:33 PM

Not every chip is worth the same in tournaments. There are tournament phases when it is extremely unfavorable to lose chips. For example if you are about to receive the prize money (bubble). The ICM answers the question of how much it is worth doubling your stack in a certain tournament phase and how catastrophic is it to lose half of your stack?
Example:
Example tournament
Buy-in: $ 10
Teammates: 10
Payouts: 1st $ 50, 2nd $ 30, 3rd $ 20
Starting stack: 1,000 chips
Example chip counts for the last 4 players
Player 1: 5,000 chips
Player 2: 2,000 chips
Player 3: 2,000 chips
Player 4: 1,000 chips

From this, the average profit of each player can be calculated:
ICM value of these chips
Player 1: 5,000 chips ≅ $ 37.18
Player 2: 2,000 chips ≅ $ 24.33
Player 3: 2,000 chips ≅ $ 24.33
Player 4: 1,000 chips ≅ $ 14.17

The following game situation is to be assessed based on the ICM model: Player 4 folds, Player 1 folds, Player 2 moves all-in (2,000 chips), Player 3 holds A9s What should player 3 do? If Player 3 doubles in this situation, their average win in this tournament is $ 36.44. If he calls and loses, he has no more chips and his expected value is $ 0. Let's say player 3 wins the showdown by 60%. Then he can calculate his expected value: EV = 60% * $ 36.44 + 40% * $ 0 = $ 21.86 His expected profit has now decreased. From $ 24.33 to $ 21.86. Therefore he should fold according to the ICM model although he has a 60% chance of winning. He shouldn't put all of his chips at risk if he can just wait until player 4 goes out and he slips into the prize money.

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What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

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