What exactly is a definition of a bluff?

PoKeRFoRNiA · Apr 10, 2014

This is a stupid question. But isn't bluffing simply mean taking down the pot uncontested with an inferior hand?

It was a low stakes social friendly 20-man sng I played last night. There was a guy who was button raising. I looked down from small blind and looked at K5s. I 3-betted him 4x his bet, and then he shows it to his neighbor and folds, saying "aah, i wish i can play this hand". Someone in the table told him that if he shows one, he has to show all. So he rolled over TJs. I rolled over my K5s. Then he was frustrated and said that I was bluffing. I told him that I wasn't bluffing because I had a better hand. K5s>TJs. I told him that HE was bluffing. Bluffing means winning the pot uncontested with an inferior hand. But my hand isn't inferior. It crushed his button raising range and was better than his TJs. I knew my hand was better because I put him exactly on the range that he can be button raising with, and my ability to issue his range paid off, hence, not bluffing.

Someone was saying that since I didn't know what he had and K5s is not a great hand, then it's a bluff. But for me, I don't think it was a bluff because I knew K5s crushed his button raising range. What exactly is a meaning of a bluff then? What qualifies as a bluff? Lot of times, I know I'm bluffing when I am semi-bluffing or betting out with rags where I KNOW that I don't have a better hand than my opponent but prey on my villain's ability to fold based on the texture of the board and the likeliness of his range that must've hit the board.

Scrover · Apr 11, 2014

You were bluffing in the sense that you did not have a great hand at all. And to point it out, K5s isn't necessarily 'crushing' the persons range. It's only a
56% favourite against any hand.

Bluffing is when you bet when you think your hand will be best less than 50% of the time. You can also be bluffing when you don't have a made hand, but have outs or cards that will make your hand best(called semi-bluffing).

If you know this person will call your three bet every single time and raises the button with anything, then three betting is not a bluff. You are more, three betting for value in this extreme example.

For the person that said that K5s isn't a great hand, then let's say then in this extreme example, you have QQ in the small blind and the button raiser only raises with AA or KK and you three bet. This person would say just by the cards that this is not a bluff when obviously it is.

In some way though, the button raiser is bluffing as the person doesn't have a hand, but is a great hand to flop HUGE and take a big pot.

trent32la · Apr 11, 2014

Bluffing is defined as betting or raising with a hand you know is likely not the best hand hoping your opponent folds. It can be done preflop on the flop turn or river...

SwiftHax · Apr 11, 2014

Bluffing is playing the worse hand aggressively in hopes to get your opponent(s) to fold the best hand and win uncontested.

If you knew that you had the better hand pre, then you were value betting not bluffing.

suby_rafael · Apr 11, 2014

Are you preparing some sort of thesis on poker related stuff or on bluffing ??

Well you might find the exact definition of bluff somewhere on the internet, as for what i think of what it means is - to bet or raise an opponent's bet when you think that the opponent has a marginal hand and will lay that down if you bet or raise him. Of course betsizing does matter here - too small and you run the risk of getting called or even raised (rebluff), too big and it may look obvious you still might get looked up. So the action and the betsizing varies against varied opponents.

Too short ?? That's all i could come up with. Good luck on your thesis.

tothbopo · Apr 11, 2014

In my opinion bluff is to act as you hand is better then it really is

XXPXXP · Apr 12, 2014

Thank you for posting an very innovation post.
I thought about your hand for quit a while.

In my view, I think you were bluffing this hand , at least for most of the chance I would say that.

the reason is , through the description of this hand, you and that aggressive player both should have an optimized range of hands to make preflop raise , 3bet, 4bet, and all in.

I don't know exactly the stack size and payout structure of the tournament, but in my view,

his hands TJs is by most of the chance, belonging to that optimized range.
but your hand, K5s , even you both showed hands -- K5s with TJs, has a better winning chance; K5s is by most of the chance, not sitting in that optimized zone.

therefore, you are trying to use a weaker range through a raise to let a strong range to fold.
I think you were bluffing this hand.
but, in case if you have special reads that his hand is TJs, I think you are value betting here.

WiZZiM · Apr 12, 2014

shoving for value

just out of curiosity, what "range" did you put him on? surely not on a range of JT and JTs right?

hffjd2000 · Apr 12, 2014

In my opinion, bluffing is an act of pretending your hand is okay/powerful while in fact its just marginal/worse hand.

You are representing a hand that somehow beats his hand.

transformpoker · Apr 12, 2014

Interesting question. Many players believe that the know the definition of the terms value bet and bluffing in practice, not just in theory. Theoretically, a bluff is a bet designed to induce folds from better hands and a bet that typically has no chance of winning if called.

In practice, bluffing can be an extremely convoluted term to define. On the river, bluffing is a very clear concept. If we have a missed queen-high flush draw and decide to bet, then it's extremely likely that we are betting as a bluff. However, on the flop with the same draw, are we bluffing?

Terms like semi-bluff have been invented to bridge the gap between these blurry earlier street polar descriptions of value betting and bluffing. Because equities change from street to street and multiple players distributions may react in certain ways to a bet, one cannot simply define hands that are bluffs or value bets at early stages.

An example that might drive the point home is that let's say the button open raises with either pocket 8s or king-jack of spades. The small blind folds and we decide to re-raise with ace-king of diamonds in the big blind. The flop is QT3 rainbow and we bet. Are we bluffing, or are we value betting? Pocket 8s, a better hand, are likely folding. However, KJ, a worse hand, is almost always calling. Terms like value betting and bluffing are frequently not so cut and dry, especially on earlier rounds of betting.

jj20002 · Apr 12, 2014

Bluff, imho, happens when one tries to show the table that holds a big hand depending on the board that is not true, so it happens for instance, when three or four cards in the board are same color then one presumes to have the flush, or if an ace or a king or any other high card shows up then presumes one has top pair, or a straight in a wet board,

Diogo Jorge · Apr 12, 2014

Is when you try to persuade the villain with your way of play an hand of less value than you are tryning to represent.

ndmr639 · Apr 12, 2014

For me bluff is betting or raise with which is no thought the best hand. Is Bet/raise with a not good hand.
The objective is to the other player or players fold/s, to the bluffer take the pot.

Good floops to all

dariodg · Apr 12, 2014

I'm thinking you were bluffing.

K5s < TJs (you can aim for a straight with the TJ, and the kicker of the K is way too low to play it.. unless you're bluffing)

Anyway, bluffing is persuading. Convincing the villain that your hand is better than his. Raising the bet so that he would think "nah, he'll get me if i pay".

tothbopo · Apr 13, 2014

Of course bluffing is also to act as your hand is weaker then it really is

DaveE · Apr 13, 2014

If your betting or raising caused a better hand to fold you have successfully bluffed.

PoKeRFoRNiA · Apr 14, 2014

WiZZiM said:
shoving for value

just out of curiosity, what "range" did you put him on? surely not on a range of JT and JTs right?

My range on him was he button raises with 55% of the hand ranges. The guy would even raise with 56s as well. Just to test him and knowing that lot of times, my K5s would be good enough, I 3-betted him 4x his raise and he folds. I intentionally showed my 3-bet after he showed his hand because I wanted him to know that I know he's button raising wide and he's not gonna blind steal that easily while letting him know that K5s is part of my 3-betting range.

He wasn't happy with my 3-bet and told me that I was bluffing but I told him that I wasn't bluffing because I knew that he was bluffing and button raising wide and that my hand was better than his. I told him that he was bluffing and if he wanted to know the definition of a bluff, he should go look it up. While I thought bluffing is just simply winning the pot uncontested with an inferior hand, lot of cc members here are inputting more detailed definition and the meaning of bluffing based on their experiences. Although I knew it subconsciously that bluffing is also false representation of perceived image as stronger hand, it somehow didn't feel like a bluff to me bcz i knew he was button raising wide while knowing that he can't afford to call my 3-bet, hence giving up his raise uncontested to me.

IPlay · Apr 14, 2014

Was your raise for value or for fold equity?

Were you raising for value with K5s? Looks like a bluff to me. If you thought you had the best hand, why not call? If you were raising while hoping he would fold, you were bluffing.

PoKeRFoRNiA · Apr 14, 2014

IPlay said:
Was your raise for value or for fold equity?

Were you raising for value with K5s? Looks like a bluff to me. If you thought you had the best hand, why not call? If you were raising while hoping he would fold, you were bluffing.

Definitely not raising for value. It was a raise to get a fold. I was banking on the fold equity since his range of calling my 4x bet or 4-betting me was extremely narrow and he would fold majority of the time. But is betting to get a fold automatically considered a bluff? There are times when I know I have the best hand temporarily but bet out to protect my hand, such as typical case of top pair vs flush/straight draw where I want my villain to cough up his stack and put it at risk if he wants to see the turn/river or both. If pot is already big enough where I don't mind winning it uncontested, I move all-in to protect my hand and seeking fold is good as well.

Typical example of seeking fold without bluffing.
Two players have 100bb. Player A raises oop to 3bb, Player B has AA and 3-bets to 10bb, player A calls, flop has a flush draw, player A checks, player B bets 20bb, player A calls. So now, pot is roughly 60bb. On the turn, it doesn't complete any type of draws and Player B simply moves all in for rest of Player A's stack to protect his hand while knowing that winning that pot uncontested made you eat 30% of your villain's stack, hence being good enough to shove.

Staneff · Apr 14, 2014

Making a bluff is pretending u have or dont have any hand. U can bluff that u have best hand and make other players fold, or pretend u have low hand and make other players bluff on u.

eidikos · Apr 14, 2014

bluffing is when you represent a better hand from the hand you hold
i cant belive you when you say that you put him in a range in that spot.he could had anything there
it was a good move from you because he made a standard raise from the button and you pushed him to fold

rifflemao · Apr 14, 2014

PoKeRFoRNiA said:
This is a stupid question. But isn't bluffing simply mean taking down the pot uncontested with an inferior hand?

It was a low stakes social friendly 20-man sng I played last night. There was a guy who was button raising. I looked down from small blind and looked at K5s. I 3-betted him 4x his bet, and then he shows it to his neighbor and folds, saying "aah, i wish i can play this hand". Someone in the table told him that if he shows one, he has to show all. So he rolled over TJs. I rolled over my K5s. Then he was frustrated and said that I was bluffing. I told him that I wasn't bluffing because I had a better hand. K5s>TJs. I told him that HE was bluffing. Bluffing means winning the pot uncontested with an inferior hand. But my hand isn't inferior. It crushed his button raising range and was better than his TJs. I knew my hand was better because I put him exactly on the range that he can be button raising with, and my ability to issue his range paid off, hence, not bluffing.

Someone was saying that since I didn't know what he had and K5s is not a great hand, then it's a bluff. But for me, I don't think it was a bluff because I knew K5s crushed his button raising range. What exactly is a meaning of a bluff then? What qualifies as a bluff? Lot of times, I know I'm bluffing when I am semi-bluffing or betting out with rags where I KNOW that I don't have a better hand than my opponent but prey on my villain's ability to fold based on the texture of the board and the likeliness of his range that must've hit the board.

IMO, you were bluffing in the sense that you were 3-betting light from the blinds. Since you would be out of position the rest of the hand, it made your cards look much stronger to him. It's a great play especially if you have a fairly tight image up to that point, and easy to get away from if he 4bets you. I think 3x his raise is usually enough to get the job done though. Sometimes if you 3bet too much from the blinds it can look weaker than you intend.

psy0nyd3 · Apr 15, 2014

A bluff is an empty threat.

duggs · Apr 15, 2014

You are pretty clearly bluffing, showing is a pretty if mistake and lecturing people at the table is aswell.

You had 46% v his opening range of 50% so even if he called 100% it's not for value. But more importantly you need more than 50% against his calling range for it to be for value, which clearly isn't the case. So yea you were clearly bluffing

rhombus · Apr 17, 2014

Bluff - Get a better hand to fold
SemiBluff - To get a better hand to fold and if they dont you can improve with a draw

What exactly is a definition of a bluff?

PoKeRFoRNiA

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