what to do in this spot

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CrushingSouls

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You have AQs or a similar strengthed hand in SB or BB and you 3bet a late position raise. He then 4bets you. You have little or no information on the player.

I feel like 5betting or folding are the best option. But I flat sometimes which I dont know is right because if you miss its check fold.

So what to do is it best to just fold?
 
wanderingthehall

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That's a hard call. Depending on the size of the 4b I might just fold if it's larger, or if it's smaller call and see a flop. I'm not brave enough to 5b.
 
Poker Orifice

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Try moving your post to 'poker strategy' 'Tournament' section of the forum.
Be sure to include all relevant info. (ie. stack sizes, player reads, history, etc.)
 
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CrushingSouls

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This is cash game not tournament 100NL
 
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hffjd2000

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If cash game, Ill fold.

The thing here is, its expensive for me going on the flop.

If tourney, Ill either raise or call.
 
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aznman08

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stats on your opponent are necessary (particularly 4b/5b frequency), but given that we have little information on said opponent: AQ generally doesn't do well against a TAG 4b range.
 
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thatgreekdude

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if you know villain is capable and good enough to 4bet light go ahead and fire a 5bet, calling is the worst because we have no clue as to where we stand in the hand and we'd be playing out of position. If we flop top pair it just leaves us in a bad spot. If we flop an ace is it good? (think AK) if we flop a Queen is it good (think AA/KK)
 
Arjonius

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The original question seems to beg another. With no info on the LP player who opened, why do you think 3betting AQ from the blinds is the best choice? And what sizing?
 
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rhombus

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with no stats, in general when you get 4bet your QQ is in bad shape and especially OOP.

Never a good idea to bloat the pot when OOP so just call and dont 3B
 
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DunningKruger

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You have AQs or a similar strengthed hand in SB or BB and you 3bet a late position raise. He then 4bets you. You have little or no information on the player.

I feel like 5betting or folding are the best option. But I flat sometimes which I dont know is right because if you miss its check fold.

So what to do is it best to just fold?

AQs is a fold when an unknown 4bets you. A reraise is going to be a losing play in most cases and calling (you can't really call it flatting with AQ heh) oop is just terrible. Even a "little" information can change this however, depending on what that information is.

The original question seems to beg another. With no info on the LP player who opened, why do you think 3betting AQ from the blinds is the best choice? And what sizing?

It's 100NL. 3betting there is pretty standard. The sizing we'll assume is also standard. OP if you meant to specify peculiar sizing for this question and forgot (I doubt it though) or for that matter atypically deep stacks then I reserve the right to change my answer. :)

with no stats, in general when you get 4bet your QQ is in bad shape and especially OOP.

Never a good idea to bloat the pot when OOP so just call and dont 3B

Being oop is ~more~ of a reason to reduce SPR / take the initiative in the hand / give yourself a good chance of taking down the pot pre / etc etc. Also it was AQs not QQ.
 
Arjonius

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It's 100NL. 3betting there is pretty standard. The sizing we'll assume is also standard. OP if you meant to specify peculiar sizing for this question and forgot (I doubt it though) or for that matter atypically deep stacks then I reserve the right to change my answer. :)
Never suggested it's not standard. That doesn't mean it's the best play every time for every player. My point is to consider each situation. If the most frequent decision is to 3bet, NP. Just don't do do it only because it's standard.
 
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DunningKruger

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Never suggested it's not standard. That doesn't mean it's the best play every time for every player. My point is to consider each situation. If the most frequent decision is to 3bet, NP. Just don't do do it only because it's standard.

Oh, was that your point. You make non standard plays because your opponent gives you a reason to do so, not for the sheer hell of it. So yes you would do it because it's standard and because you'd hopefully understand why by the time you're playing 100NL online. What is it exactly you were telling him to consider vs a player we don't have any relevant info on yet. We can certainly discuss the pros and cons (there are plenty of both) of using a 3bet range containing AQs as a default vs co or btn opens even though that's not the topic here at all. Or, if all you truly wanted to say by asking that question was just to consider the situation, then... okay. Thanks I guess.
 
catchitfool

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ima FOOL so i prob gonna go all in since id be out of position
 
Arjonius

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Oh, was that your point. You make non standard plays because your opponent gives you a reason to do so, not for the sheer hell of it. So yes you would do it because it's standard and because you'd hopefully understand why by the time you're playing 100NL online. What is it exactly you were telling him to consider vs a player we don't have any relevant info on yet. We can certainly discuss the pros and cons (there are plenty of both) of using a 3bet range containing AQs as a default vs co or btn opens even though that's not the topic here at all. Or, if all you truly wanted to say by asking that question was just to consider the situation, then... okay. Thanks I guess.
If you believe making the standard play here is always best vs an unknown, fine. But even if it's always best for you, does that automatically make it always best for OP and everyone else regardless of their playing styles, ability levels, etc.? If you think so, we''l have to agree to disagree.
 
Diogo Jorge

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If you have no information dont raise. It is extremely and necessary have information when you take a decision like that. If you dont, I'd fold it easy dude.
 
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joe777

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With no stat,the only clear option here is to fold cause you dont need to risk your stacks against pocket Aces or AK.Information of the villain is crucial in making the decision.
 
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DunningKruger

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If you believe making the standard play here is always best vs an unknown, fine. But even if it's always best for you, does that automatically make it always best for OP and everyone else regardless of their playing styles, ability levels, etc.? If you think so, we''l have to agree to disagree.

It's a hypothetical scenario created by the OP as a means of posing a question about responding to 4bets and weighing your options in advance. If you think he was referring to spots where it's incorrect to even make the 3bet in the first place, we'll have to agree to disagree. Asking him why make a perfectly standard play to begin with instead of offering any actual insight into the question itself is missing the point at best, and I can't say much beyond that unless you decide to explain whether you were asking that question as a way to suggest in your own roundabout manner that he shouldn't be 3betting in that spot, or if it's more because you genuinely do not understand why players will often 3bet AQs type hands out of the blinds at that limit vs wide opening ranges.

Incidentally, I've been seeing "playing style" get tossed around quite a bit as a means of justifying not only some pretty terrible poker but some pretty terrible forum advice. Let's not resort to that here. There's nothing at all to be gleaned from the original post that suggests making unusual plays for playing style reasons.
 
el_magiciann

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Flat call the raise, if he 4bet you then 100% flat call or fold i don't see a way to 5bet here it would be a mistake...
 
Arjonius

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It's a hypothetical scenario created by the OP as a means of posing a question about responding to 4bets and weighing your options in advance. If you think he was referring to spots where it's incorrect to even make the 3bet in the first place, we'll have to agree to disagree. Asking him why make a perfectly standard play to begin with instead of offering any actual insight into the question itself is missing the point at best, and I can't say much beyond that unless you decide to explain whether you were asking that question as a way to suggest in your own roundabout manner that he shouldn't be 3betting in that spot, or if it's more because you genuinely do not understand why players will often 3bet AQs type hands out of the blinds at that limit vs wide opening ranges.
It appears you genuinely do not understand that you're addressing a straw man, not what I actually said.
 
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DunningKruger

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It appears you genuinely do not understand that you're addressing a straw man, not what I actually said.

I'm (genuinely) enjoying the irony here. Not only did you fail to address anything I actually said by choosing to make this silly quip but it was not getting sucked into your straw man that prompted it in the first place. Brilliant. Not sure what you're going to come up with next but I know what you won't. That is, anything of value to finally contribute to the topic at hand.
 
LD1977

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C'mon guys :D

Anyways, you 3bet AQs for value because it is far ahead of LP opening range and ahead of LP flatting range vs. a 3bet, but you fold it to a 4bet because it is crushed by a typical 4bet range.

It is safe to assume that without info (goes both ways) he is not 4betting light since he doesn't know what kind of 3betting range the hero has.

Against known players the fun can begin but even there 5bet shoving AQs is basically profitable only because we know he folds enough of his 4betting range that we can compensate being behind his stackoff range. Even if we are borderline we should shove since we widen out shoving range for our premiums.

None of this is in any way relevant below 25NL.

Calling the 4bet OOP is ****ing terrible and is not a consideration.
 
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DunningKruger

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Ah, a real post. Yeah it's a simple matter of ranges. With little to no info on our opponent a lot of what you rely on just experience vs the player pool... and maths obv. The sooner you can determine whether a particular player is any good or not (this takes less time than one might expect and if they are in fact bad then it's much less time) the the sooner you can maybe start targeting them with your pre flop decisions especially in the OP's scenario when they're a couple of seats to your left.

It is safe to assume that without info (goes both ways) he is not 4betting light since he doesn't know what kind of 3betting range the hero has.

This is true to an extent, and a lot to do with why I advocate wider 3bet ranges vs unknowns and then adjusting as they try to. Even just in general, all kinds of players 4bet an unbalanced range (weighted toward premium hands obv) so yeah you can't just try to get it in with AQ without a good reason.
 
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DunningKruger

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Err. When you're a couple of seats to their left that should read. Been drinking a bit tonight. If anyone was itching to challenge me hu4soulz for whatever reason then this would definitely be the time to do it. Better hurry too I can already feel the sober starting to ooze back into me.
 
Arjonius

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I'm (genuinely) enjoying the irony here. Not only did you fail to address anything I actually said by choosing to make this silly quip but it was not getting sucked into your straw man that prompted it in the first place. Brilliant. Not sure what you're going to come up with next but I know what you won't. That is, anything of value to finally contribute to the topic at hand.
Ironic indeed since your presumably brilliant contribution basically consists of saying it's standard to 3bet.

/leaves thread
 
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ayaraled

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no info about your opponent...fold...
 
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