Try to think "defense" in poker

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bdc100

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As a chess-player (started at age 6), the word "defense" was an integral part of my chess education. But in poker you rarely hear the word "defense" explicitly mentioned.

Example: Incompetent play by me:

Villain raised 5 BB UG; I called with [Ac 9s] UG+1. Flop [6d Th As], everyone else folded; villain went into the "tank", requesting TIME (he took the max time allowed ..a classic tell of a weak player with a strong hand); he finally bet 2/3 pot, I stupidly called. Turn [6d Th As 6h], he instantly bet 3/4 pot, I stupidly called. On the river he shoved all-in and I called. Final board [6d Th As 6h 3h], he showed [Ad Jh] and I was done.

I made gross mistakes preflop and on every street. Had I been playing chess, I'm certain "defense" would have clicked into my mind at some point, and I wouldn't have been so reckless/stupid.

Summary: I think the allure of gambling distracts new players (even when they know they're behind). If they could get over this and think more defensively like a chess player, I'm sure their poker would improve.
 
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sryImPro

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it's funny that you mentioned defense, because me, and my friend were thinking about a sort of "defense" in poker, not an actual defense but it looks like one in certain ways. And it's called "insult"
Very often we find players "get offended" by maniacal bets made by other players, so they keep on calling until the river, even if they know they were behind...
So, i would like to ask you to question your situation, from the very beginning and tell me if you felt a little offended by this guy moves
 
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Saperion

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Its fold pre flop, thats the defense.

IMHO
 
LD1977

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Lets not drag chess into it. You tried to station against likely better hand and got owned.
 
dnegsisabadreg

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The mistake in this hand is not in what you do on the flop. I think flop is a required call. The big mistake in this hand is calling preflop. Why are we calling a 5x open from EP vs an UTG raiser with a hand as bad as A9? Preflop is an obvious fold.
 
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The villain tested your hand strength by betting 3/4 of pot on the turn,you should have fold on the river.
 
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ph_il

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Villain raised 5 BB UG; I called with [Ac 9s] UG+1.
...What is your reasoning for calling a 5x BB raise from UTG with a weak ace?

Flop [6d Th As], everyone else folded; villain went into the "tank", requesting TIME (he took the max time allowed ..a classic tell of a weak player with a strong hand);
...where did you get this from and how is it a classic tell? There could be a number of reasons for this player to use the max time allowed and it doesn't necessarily mean it's a tell, unless you this player had been prone to do something like this...which you didn't mention.

he finally bet 2/3 pot, I stupidly called.
...standard cbet on the flop. Why is this a stupid call? You called with a weak A and hit. What exactly were you hoping to hit the flop? 9 pair w/ A kicker? Did you think of possible hands villain could be betting here?

Turn [6d Th As 6h], he instantly bet 3/4 pot, I stupidly called.
...again, why is this a stupid call? Do you think the 6 really improved his hand at all? Again, did you put villain on a hand range?

On the river he shoved all-in and I called. Final board [6d Th As 6h 3h], he showed [Ad Jh] and I was done.
...at all during this hand, did you put your opponent on any possible hand range? They don't necessarily always to have an A there. In fact, their river shove was a bit ballsy with just an AJ on a possible flush, boat, or better 2 pair board (A10). I think your 'stupid call' comments are you being a bit result oriented because you stacked off with a weak ace and it's in hindsight of what the result was. Would you be saying the same thing if you had won the hand?


I made gross mistakes preflop and on every street. Had I been playing chess, I'm certain "defense" would have clicked into my mind at some point, and I wouldn't have been so reckless/stupid.
...I agree. Your mistake was calling preflop. You next mistake wasn't just calling your opponent down, but was doing so without any reasoning. Again, did you ever put your opponent on hand range? Was there any other actions you could've taken besides just calling down to win you the pot or possibly give you a better range of possible villain hands that would've saved you chips at the end. I think a raise on the turn would've been a good play.
This post isn't about being defensive. I think you're just trying to find an excuse for bad play that cost you your tournament. Just try and learn from it. Poker is about making as few mistakes as possible while forcing your opponents to make more.
The villain tested your hand strength by betting 3/4 of pot on the turn,you should have fold on the river.
After calling the turn bet, the call on the river is fine because the 3 very unlikely helped the villain out. It would also depend on how much of the stack was already in the pot as well and how much was left behind, but I think the call is fine if they think their A is good up to that point, you're not really fearing a 3 on the river.

It was also very unlikely that the 6 helped out the villain, unless they raised with 66 PF and turned the quads, then the big turn bet doesn't make a lot of sense because it's giving the opponent a chance to fold a lot of draw hands like 78, 89, flush draws. However, for the OP, the turn was a perfect card raise on, and turn their flop call into a float to try and take it down.
 
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bdc100

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it's funny that you mentioned defense, because me, and my friend were thinking about a sort of "defense" in poker, not an actual defense but it looks like one in certain ways. And it's called "insult"
Very often we find players "get offended" by maniacal bets made by other players, so they keep on calling until the river, even if they know they were behind...
So, i would like to ask you to question your situation, from the very beginning and tell me if you felt a little offended by this guy moves

Yes, you made a great observation: I was a little "offended", so I became a calling-station. I very often keep on calling until the river even if I know that I'm behind. This is my biggest psychological weakness: I feel that every opponent is a LAG who is trying to bully me with a weak hand, so I retaliate by calling them down (trying to "teach them a lesson", even though my gut instinct tells me that I'm behind). If I could get over this emotional issue I think I could improve a lot.

Thanks for pointing this out.
 
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bdc100

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This post isn't about being defensive. I think you're just trying to find an excuse for bad play that cost you your tournament. Just try and learn from it. Poker is about making as few mistakes as possible while forcing your opponents to make more.After calling the turn bet, the call on the river is fine because the 3 very unlikely helped the villain out. It would also depend on how much of the stack was already in the pot as well and how much was left behind, but I think the call is fine if they think their A is good up to that point, you're not really fearing a 3 on the river.

It was also very unlikely that the 6 helped out the villain, unless they raised with 66 PF and turned the quads, then the big turn bet doesn't make a lot of sense because it's giving the opponent a chance to fold a lot of draw hands like 78, 89, flush draws. However, for the OP, the turn was a perfect card raise on, and turn their flop call into a float to try and take it down.

I realized on the flop that I made a bad play preflop ..that really distracted me postflop, so I didn't think properly and didn't put my opponent on a range. And I'm very results-oriented too. I think psychological weakness is my biggest problem.
 
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sryImPro

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identifying a problem is the first stage of solution so i definitely believe that you are on the right way buddy :) Cheers!
 
rflbarreto

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Maybe not the best example but it is really a very nice subject. Gave me a lot of insights in my own game. Thanks!!!
By the way, are u a good defender at chess??
 
AAnonimowi

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First of all, you should have folded preflop. 5BB bet from UTG always mean strenght. Your A9o is really way behind.
But you called, as you said, because of ' the allure of gambling '. So after getting top pair on flop, your enemy made a continuation bet. Even in situation with top pair, you should've realised that he could bet preflop with A and at least 10, possibly suited. Ofc he could get pocket pair, but he wouldn't bet 7,7BB unless he had 6 or 10. But you called.
Turn was good for you, because you had no guarantee your top pair is good at the moment, because of pair on the board. But you called again on 20BB.
And you were busted on river. I can't believe someone who played chess made that much mistakes at one hand :D From pre-flop to river every single call was a huge mistake. This hand should be a lesson of patience and considering your decisions. :)
 
ribaric

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As a chess-player (started at age 6), the word "defense" was an integral part of my chess education. But in poker you rarely hear the word "defense" explicitly mentioned.

Example: Incompetent play by me:

Villain raised 5 BB UG; I called with [Ac 9s] UG+1. Flop [6d Th As], everyone else folded; villain went into the "tank", requesting TIME (he took the max time allowed ..a classic tell of a weak player with a strong hand); he finally bet 2/3 pot, I stupidly called. Turn [6d Th As 6h], he instantly bet 3/4 pot, I stupidly called. On the river he shoved all-in and I called. Final board [6d Th As 6h 3h], he showed [Ad Jh] and I was done.

I made gross mistakes preflop and on every street. Had I been playing chess, I'm certain "defense" would have clicked into my mind at some point, and I wouldn't have been so reckless/stupid.

Summary: I think the allure of gambling distracts new players (even when they know they're behind). If they could get over this and think more defensively like a chess player, I'm sure their poker would improve.
You musnt call with A9 off and with A9 suited maybe but you have to fold if you dnt get flush.
 
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