Struggling to fold

I really struggle to fold hands like JJ, QQ preflop even when i know i am behind, or when i have hit a set but i can tell someone hit the flush, or when i hit the straight and somone probably has the flush, i always want to find out whether my read is correct, and 90% of the time i AM correct, and should have folded, i find it so much easier to fold if there is a player all in so i can find out whether i am right or not, how do i get this mindset out of my head, and is anyone else in/has been in the same boat, if so how do/did they deal with it? thanks for the help, as i think this is one of my biggest leak

I understand what you mean, as I had the same trouble. I no longer have this, in certain cases. If I have AA-JJ I am raising an amount that fits to my table dynamics and position as well as any calling prior to my raise. And this is gonna be changing according to your table. If the table is real loose (and stupidly loose as well, happens a lot in small stakes, big raises getting called with Q 7 os and so on) I will raise 4-5 BB and more with limpers. If there is a raiser already, it depends on how I view him, his position, his raise and relative stack sizes. If he is big stacked, and has his stack from only playing premium hands aggressively, what I do is depending on blinds and my stack. With JJ and a decent stack, I may call here and be ready to leave the hand if overcards appear. If my stack is dwindling and his raise makes the pot 25%+ my stack I may push back all in. There are few limits to things you must consider before making your move and no standard answer can be given without considering table dynamics, blinds, stacks and so on. But I digress as I think your question pertains to post flop play.

However, table dynamics and position and stacks are just as pertinent post flop. But simply put. say I have QQ and the flop comes Q 9 7 d. I raise the pot and get called. That sends big red flags up for me and I must consider who is calling and why. A calling station and obvious weak player, or someone who has shown good poker playing? Cause I am gonna have a tough decision if another diamond falls. In low stakes, I am probably going the limit with my set. However, if the flop came K 9 7 d and my raise was called, I am almost out of this hand, and certainly done putting money in if another diamond falls.

But I am really saying a lot without saying anything at all, cause it will always be situational. I see people with AA-QQ going out cause they cannot lay down when it is pretty obvious they are well behind. But sometimes you are up against an idiot where he can have a monster or crap, he plays em all. You have to observe and pay attention, and know your opponent. The factors I mentioned above will be what helps you decide. Stacks, position, blind level, players left and others. I am a STT and MTT player, so my answer is directly about these games.

But it is hard to give any kind of a generic answer, best thing is you post some hands and dont reveal the outcome, and that will be the easiest way for all here to comment on if you should lay down or push (back).

Yeah, the big problem is that i feel that i am behind but i just don't want to lay it down, i can never really lay Qs down pre (i have layed Js down but that is nothing special) i think i am fairly good at knowing when i am behind i just cant seem to lay them down because i want to find out whether my read was good or not, maybe that it myself doubting my read because if there is 4 cards to a flush and i have a set it is an easy lay down with much aggression shown, so basically it is not me identifying whether i am behind with my big hands it is just i want to find out whether they actually had it, if people were never allowed to much i think i would be folding a lot more of these, saving myself a fair sum of money (big compared to my bankroll)

What level? Most times big pp are good in a cash game, but no good in a donkament. Depends on the situation.

imwatcher said:

I really struggle to fold hands like JJ, QQ preflop even when i know i am behind, or when i have hit a set but i can tell someone hit the flush, or when i hit the straight and somone probably has the flush, i always want to find out whether my read is correct, and 90% of the time i AM correct, and should have folded, i find it so much easier to fold if there is a player all in so i can find out whether i am right or not, how do i get this mindset out of my head, and is anyone else in/has been in the same boat, if so how do/did they deal with it? thanks for the help, as i think this is one of my biggest leak

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What level are you playing at? Full Ring or 6max? Do you have Poker Tracker or Hold 'em Manager?

You really need a HUD to make the correct decisons here. A 3bet from an opponent whose 3betting range is 4% (AA KK QQ JJ AK) or less means you should fold here as you are crushed by that range. Without a long history or a HUD you need to pay attention to your opponent. Are they raising & re-raising several times per orbit? If so then shove QQ/ JJ but with over 45k hands at 2nl/ 5nl/ 10nl I can tell you that without a good read vs your opponent that it is best to fold QQ & JJ preflop to a re-raise.

I was where you are at not long ago. When you are holding QQ or JJ and you open raise from Early position you want to think you have the best hand. If no one re-raises you then you probably do but these hands are vulnerable, especially OOP because many players at this level will flat call with a lot of rag aces to bust KK QQ JJ and you also could run into someone set mining you or someone gambling with junk and hitting. Nothing like raising with QQ and the flop comes down J97 and thinking you are good only to realize your opponent called your raise with T8o and flopped a straight.

My best advice is raise more preflop, say 5 or 6 bb with all pairs TT+ when OOP. If someone comes over the top of that raise then shove with AA & KK and fold the rest. If you get one caller and you flop an overpair on a dry uncoordinated board make a 1/2 pot bet continuation bet. If the board is 'wet' with lots of draws make the bet slightly larger, 2/3 pot. If you are re-raised you may be against a set or a bigger overpair as lots of players do flat with AA and even KK so folding your QQ & JJ is fine. If you can't lay down then re-raise but if you are called you need to shut your hand down and if the turn doesn't make your set then it is check/ fold. NEVER call a re-raise OOP with a single pair, even Aces.

It takes a long time to learn these lessons and the pain you suffer is valuable in making you better for the future.

@imwatcher, I can relate to your situation personally. There are times where I would hit a set, and slow play it then a runner , reunner flush shows up. Then I find my self saying mentally " Even if this player wasn't playing for a flush he or she may have caught one by an accident.) Then Ill look at the pot and say Its a big pot, along with other things Ill say mentally! The best advice I can say to you is make your decision before it gets too late. If you choose to bet big or notice someone else is being aggressive after the flop, you can probably predict this player is not going to go away easily . I started thinking more before the turn and have fold more hands and started winning more too. Also it helps when you fold sometimes to let a player know you fold a good hand( by showing them) I wouldnt do it much but If you do this. Soon or later you will cathc this person in a hand where they feel they can bully you and thats when you get the " big payback" as I like to call it,lol

fx20736 said:

My best advice is raise more preflop, say 5 or 6 bb with all pairs TT+ when OOP. If someone comes over the top of that raise then shove with AA & KK and fold the rest. If you get one caller and you flop an overpair on a dry uncoordinated board make a 1/2 pot bet continuation bet. If the board is 'wet' with lots of draws make the bet slightly larger, 2/3 pot. If you are re-raised you may be against a set or a bigger overpair as lots of players do flat with AA and even KK so folding your QQ & JJ is fine. If you can't lay down then re-raise but if you are called you need to shut your hand down and if the turn doesn't make your set then it is check/ fold. NEVER call a re-raise OOP with a single pair, even Aces.

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This is pretty solid advice, couldn't have said it better. You also have to listen to that so called 'gut feeling', especially after you've tested it & it keeps up coming true (90%). Read the table, test the table, & all things will unfold...

rudeboyphx said:

This is pretty solid advice, couldn't have said it better. You also have to listen to that so called 'gut feeling', especially after you've tested it & it keeps up coming true (90%). Read the table, test the table, & all things will unfold...

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Man that "gut feeling" has got me in so much trouble,LOL

it comes with experience, but at some point you will have to trust your read, and lay it down. I fold if i read my opp for a bigger hand, and i have no redraws. Now my reads cant always be right, but there right enough of the time that i show profit, and thats whats lets me sleep at night. Another thing if you fold and you get to see you were wrong, think about the situation, and think about if you really made a mistake, or was it just an imposible call. I was in a $1/2 and had 56s on button, flop my two suits sb led, co called, and i called(sometimes i raised but this time just smooth called), turn ck ck ck (most times i bet, but decided to take a free one), hit my flush, opp bet $50 into a $30 pot, im like what?, but before i complete the thought co shoves for $130, im like wtf? and now the sb trying to call before ive acted, okay so stare at the board and see that, someone could have made the strait, no paired board so safe their. Anyways i figure got be beat with the action one has a strait the other a higher flush than me. I fold. they cant wait to flip their hands over, sb has two paired on river, the other guy hit the strait, and im like couldnt make that call, im going to make some money in this game. See how i thought about it positive- and i did make a lot from those two gentleman, i did NOT losen up, but i kept playing correct.

You need experience. I myself get into tricky situations because of lack of experience. Not because i am a bad player but because sometimes i do not see immediately the draws on the board. There are some tricky draws and tricky hands especially when you deal with calling stations. If you slowplay a set you will give a calling station the chance to make a draw on the turn so he will stay with you to see the river even if you bet half of the pot or an entire pot. I lose especially to this kind of players not verry often but it is hard to fold when you have a set thinking about a rainbow not scary flop . But here is where the tricky thing is. Alway watch the entire board. Donk could had hit a draw on the turn and complete it on the river. Streight , flush, maybe another set. Another set or a streight are not that obvious but a flush is.

Again. A streight draw is hard to see on the flop, 2 pairs are verry hard to see.
At microstakes i would advise anyone to not slowplay the hands. Raise hard before the flop, verry hard after the river. Slowplay when you have the nuts , and try to trick others into putting their stack down when you made your hand.

I have read the adage that good players find reasons to fold, and bad players find reasons to call.

I think it's true.

I used to have a lot of trouble laying down a big pocket pair, but I am getting better at it now. The key is to keep the pot size as small as possible so that it isn't so big that you are compelled to commit a big portion of your remaing stack to salvage the money in the middle.