I respectfully disagree with those saying to stay away from mid level connecters. These hands have just as good a chance of flopping a straight than A234 etc. I understand the points about scooping the pot but lets say you have 6789 and you see a flop like 7 10 J rainbow. Then, you have the nut straight (granted another broadway card gets you in trouble) and the low chaser needs runner runner to potentially get any part of the low. Is this really any different than hitting a set with the same type of board where another broadway card counterfeits your set?
I respectfully disagree with those saying to stay away from mid level connecters. These hands have just as good a chance of flopping a straight than A234 etc. I understand the points about scooping the pot but lets say you have 6789 and you see a flop like 7 10 J rainbow. Then, you have the nut straight (granted another broadway card gets you in trouble) and the low chaser needs runner runner to potentially get any part of the low. Is this really any different than hitting a set with the same type of board where another broadway card counterfeits your set?
In your example we flop a nut straight but the TJ part of this makes it a scary board. We are favorites for now but what if the board pairs? Or what if an A or K comes on the turn or river. Even a Q on the turn or river weakens your nuts. How sure are you that you have the best of it now? Because your 68 low is not likely to help if a low comes through the back door than you are back to winning half this pot or losing it all.
Also if you have A234 you have counterfeit protection when lows do hit the flop. With 6789 there is little (no?) protection and the only times we can expect to win is when no low is possible and in the dream flop scenerio that you described.
Also things change dramatically here depending on if we are talking about Limit or Pot limit play.
You don't even have re-draws with your nut straight, any 7,8,9,T,J,Q,K,A changes the nuts. Are you thrilled with this flop if it comes something like 369? No, any low card means you're playing for half, and while you're probably ahead now I don't see how you could be thrilled with this flop. Stay away from middle cards, I don't think there's even much debate about this.
A "safe" card also puts out a low draw. I would never play 6789.
7j10 rainbow is the only safe flop for this hand. The problem with connectors, say 6789, is if you don't flop the straight, your battling people banging away at the low, and if you flop the straight, your still battling people banging away at the low, and they could end up making a stonger high hand while they are banging away at their low. I'll take a flyer on 4 way connectors starting at 9 and up, and most times I want them suited, because I'm asking a lot going into a O8 hand with these cards. I appreciate what your saying, but I been stuck out in nowhere mans land to many times with hands like that.I respectfully disagree with those saying to stay away from mid level connecters. These hands have just as good a chance of flopping a straight than A234 etc. I understand the points about scooping the pot but lets say you have 6789 and you see a flop like 7 10 J rainbow. Then, you have the nut straight (granted another broadway card gets you in trouble) and the low chaser needs runner runner to potentially get any part of the low. Is this really any different than hitting a set with the same type of board where another broadway card counterfeits your set?
I understand but what's the difference between a made broadway straight that has the board pair or flush out there. We take each street as it comes and play accordingly. I'm sure there are times where you've folded a set after the turn because there's a flush or straight on the board. My play of medium cards is no different. Your set is trying to avoid certain cards the same way my straight is. As far as the backdoor low, sure, its there. Have you ever chased a low? I have and more often than not, I get punished for doing so. In this scenario, we're the one doing the punishing. I know that most won't agree with me and that's okay but I will tell you WHY I do what I say.
Except we weren't talking about having a Broadway straight and having the board pair or have the flush or flush draws out there. We were talking about having a smaller straight. Weren't we?
In your example it is a dream flop for that hand. I just think you will lose more than its worth playing it.
My point was that straights get counterfieted in the game..whether its broadway or otherwise.
Lol sucker hands. There's a saying that you should never play a hand without an ace, and you should never play any hand if it contains a nine. While that may be a slight exaggeration, its not very far off.any connected hands like 6789, etc
How do you guys feel about a raise with 40 point starting hands in PLO8?
The way i see it this let's us see who is who low cards right away. The flop of course decided how far we go after. I am not for limping with Hi cards UTG becuae the idea is to get HU for the flop if we can.
I am talking hands where all cards are T+ and preferably T+ with a pair.
Hands like TQQK TKKJ
Also would like to know your thoughts on doing this at ring vs SnG and MTTs
Thoughts.
I respectfully disagree with those saying to stay away from mid level connecters. These hands have just as good a chance of flopping a straight than A234 etc. I understand the points about scooping the pot but lets say you have 6789 and you see a flop like 7 10 J rainbow. Then, you have the nut straight (granted another broadway card gets you in trouble) and the low chaser needs runner runner to potentially get any part of the low. Is this really any different than hitting a set with the same type of board where another broadway card counterfeits your set?
It appears that my opinions in this thread are in the minority but I think it depends on how your table is reacting to raises. I've found that ring games (granted I've played more PLO than PLO8) have no respect once so ever for raises so you get almost no information. So, your decision becomes do you want to build a pot on the chance you hit or not because most are calling anyway. I don't have enough PLO8 MTT/SNG experience to give you an informed opinion in that environment.
It appears that my opinions in this thread are in the minority but I think it depends on how your table is reacting to raises. I've found that ring games (granted I've played more PLO than PLO8) have no respect once so ever for raises so you get almost no information. So, your decision becomes do you want to build a pot on the chance you hit or not because most are calling anyway. I don't have enough PLO8 MTT/SNG experience to give you an informed opinion in that environment.
If you have 6789, you want to see a 458, even knowing that you will split the pot. A 7TJ flop is your worst case scenario, and a sucker hand. Any 8, 9, Q, K or ace, (that is 18 outs twice!!) and you no longer have the nuts. So, it is not just the broadway card that counterfeits you, you forgot about the 3 8s & 3 9s. And that is even without the possibility of the board pairing up. And that likelihood is further increased by the fact that you are not holding those cards either.
So by your own example, you made an argument for why low connectors are not good. In order for you to make your nut straight, there will be a low. Four cards to a broadway is a completely different animal. And 4 cards to a wheel are the same animal as 4 to a broadway, just a different color. They each have the potential to scoop. One more thing, broadway cards that are suited (especially ace of course) has added potential for a flush - middle card, if suited, usually do not. You certainly could not raise them.
It appears that my opinions in this thread are in the minority but I think it depends on how your table is reacting to raises. I've found that ring games (granted I've played more PLO than PLO8) have no respect once so ever for raises so you get almost no information. So, your decision becomes do you want to build a pot on the chance you hit or not because most are calling anyway. I don't have enough PLO8 MTT/SNG experience to give you an informed opinion in that environment.
There is no respect for raises at all because they see it as pennies. If we get 4 callers on a pit size bet form UTG you are right we have no information at all. We are back to playing our cards only and not the playing based on what our opponets may or may not have. I think a lot of times we are going to be able to exploit this in PLO8 but will suffer for it in LO8.
Thoughts?
I understand but what's the difference between a made broadway straight that has the board pair or flush out there. We take each street as it comes and play accordingly. I'm sure there are times where you've folded a set after the turn because there's a flush or straight on the board. My play of medium cards is no different. Your set is trying to avoid certain cards the same way my straight is. As far as the backdoor low, sure, its there. Have you ever chased a low? I have and more often than not, I get punished for doing so. In this scenario, we're the one doing the punishing. I know that most won't agree with me and that's okay but I will tell you WHY I do what I say.
Fair point; there aren't any redraws but people play sets like they're monsters too...and how many redraws do you really have 7? Also, consider this; I'll play this hand when there are a lot of raises in front of me because I'm assuming most are raising with broadway cards or large PP's so my medium cards should be more live than their cards since (theoretically) the higher cards are eaten up in other players hands. You're quick to point out that I could be playing for half the pot if a "safe card" comes but your A2xx low can get quartered just as easily if another player has A2xx. Like I mentioned above, let them chase the low, we'll hammer them for doing so. I think your attitude of NEVER playing this hand is wrong; just like I'm sure you think my position is wrong too.
Play hands that can scoop. Its not complicated. That's the whole point of this game.SO im guessing some of the best hands in HL are small connectorz with some way to win the high suited connectors for exmple.