Sneak attacks in poker....how do we avoid them?

punctual

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When I say sneak attacks I mean situations where an opponent has a pair in the pocket which has connected to form a set on the flop. If you have top two pair and there are no straight or flush draws on the board you can feel very confident that you will prevail in the hand only to find out your opponent was hiding a pocket pair that connected to form a set on on the flop.

How do we avoid these situations? Situations like that seem like pitfalls that are inescapable. Like mines in the poker field that one can simply not guard against.

In managing the risk side of poker I've come across this situation quite a bit and I can't seem to find an adequate solution. One way to avoid this could be to simply never put all your chips in with two pairs. But many times, your opponents will have much less than two pairs and by not playing two pairs you will be giving up a lot of opportunity to build your stack. Maybe then we should only be willing to play two pairs aggressively when we are deepstacked? But in all honesty, when I am shortstacked and get two pair, that could be my saving grace: how would I fold that?

Just some food for thought. Would love to hear how other people are able to avoid the pitfalls of two pair versus a set. Clearly, if there are two cards of the same value on the flop then there is a chance someone could have the set by having a single matching card in the pocket. This situation is avoidable: you see a pair on the flop so you know the risk of a set or even a full house is there.

But I am speaking more about the situtation where a player sneaks into a pot with a pocket pair (i.e. limps in) and hits a set on the flop. If you have top two pair in that situation and there are no flush or straight draws, how do you get away from that hand?

thanks
 
dj11

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Never seen a perfect solution. And BTW this would fall under the definition of a 'Trap', so no need for the sneak attack. It is powerful, and lately has been the counter to over aggressive play. Thru the years this goes back and forth.

The idea of not shoving 2 pair is not a bad idea, but you know that if the opportunity arises, your villain will force you to do something uncomfortable. This is one of the essences of poker (there are many other essences).
 
Faust

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This happens when your opponent does a tricky play, where he just calls pre-flop, otherwise you'll know that he has a chance of having something.

The best way to avoid this is considering two things mainly, the information you have of your opponent based on history (previous hands, how did he acted in different situations, if he's sneaky, agressive, changing, etc.) and the cards that are on table (you can complicate this much more, but it's the basic). If you have the higuest pair with the cards on the table, supose it's a pair of 10s, remember that there are 4 pairs that can kick you, although you don't see them they may be present, and you know if they are present if basing on odds (If you have A 10, there's a less chance that your opponent has pair of aces but still there are 3 pairs that can kick you).
I assume this is knowledge you know, but it's important to "clarify" it because the combination of these two analysis will give you more certainty about how to act in a situation like that, combine psychology with maths. Also if you are not certain that a situation like this is happening remember that the game is a jungle, act with the supposition that everyone will try to kick you anytime they can.
 
punctual

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This happens when your opponent does a tricky play, where he just calls pre-flop, otherwise you'll know that he has a chance of having something.

The best way to avoid this is considering two things mainly, the information you have of your opponent based on history (previous hands, how did he acted in different situations, if he's sneaky, agressive, changing, etc.) and the cards that are on table (you can complicate this much more, but it's the basic). If you have the higuest pair with the cards on the table, supose it's a pair of 10s, remember that there are 4 pairs that can kick you, although you don't see them they may be present, and you know if they are present if basing on odds (If you have A 10, there's a less chance that your opponent has pair of aces but still there are 3 pairs that can kick you).
I assume this is knowledge you know, but it's important to "clarify" it because the combination of these two analysis will give you more certainty about how to act in a situation like that, combine psychology with maths. Also if you are not certain that a situation like this is happening remember that the game is a jungle, act with the supposition that everyone will try to kick you anytime they can.

It seems to me that this kind of risk is inescapable in poker. I just wonder how professionals handle this. do they simply fold when pushed too hard with just 2-pair?

Knowing your opponent is important but this is not always possible; oftentimes, you have a limited hand history with an opponent.

Maybe this is where instinct comes into play?
 
punctual

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Never seen a perfect solution. And BTW this would fall under the definition of a 'Trap', so no need for the sneak attack. It is powerful, and lately has been the counter to over aggressive play. Thru the years this goes back and forth.

The idea of not shoving 2 pair is not a bad idea, but you know that if the opportunity arises, your villain will force you to do something uncomfortable. This is one of the essences of poker (there are many other essences).

Trap or sneak attack, same thing. To me, it feels like a sneak attack, every time it happens...lol

I tend to be a pretty aggressive player so perhaps this is why this seems to happen to me more often than it should. So I must learn to tone down my aggression. Its easy to be aggressive. It's easy to be tight....more difficult to switch gears.

i think this is probably where switching gears comes into play.....the ability to switch gears is probably the difference between a good player and a great player...
 
MediaBLITZ

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How about making the decision to NOT stack off with an average hand like two pair? Or, saying it another way, don't go looking to make a big pot with an average hand - exercise pot control.
If you want to make a big pot out of a big hand, and a small pot out of a small hand, does it not follow an average hand should be going for an average pot?
 
Faust

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It seems to me that this kind of risk is inescapable in poker. I just wonder how professionals handle this. do they simply fold when pushed too hard with just 2-pair?

Knowing your opponent is important but this is not always possible; oftentimes, you have a limited hand history with an opponent.

Maybe this is where instinct comes into play?

Definitely! Or at least it's my opinion too. But the problem with instinct is to know also how to feel it... Everything related with instinct is hard to put into words. Besides it's a very controversial theme.

We often confuse instinct with what we want to be instinct, some sort of "conscious instinct" that is not instict at all, but an idea. When we take decisions based on that false idea we are doomed. If you want to "read" more accurately your instinct a first step is to control well your emotions, feel absolutely calm (this is to supress the reactions that you may have for other factors). Secondly, you cannot read your instinct all the time, you have to be absolutely focused on poker (so the instinct is based exclusively on poker), however do not feel saturated (meaning with this that you have to be lucid).

That's a key that will open many gates if you learn how to handle it. The only thing you need to be sure about is that you can't control it. (If you do that leads what i said earlier: a false idea of what we think insctinct is).
 
rickypr18

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When the opponent has a pocket pair and the flop gives him three of a kind, it's called a set. When the opponent has a high card hand (AK, AQ, AJ, for example), and the flop gives him three of a kind, it's called trips.
 
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This is called a cooler, you just go broke. It's not that often that you should be flopping top two pair vs a set,, you can always hit your 4 outer lol
 
punctual

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How about making the decision to NOT stack off with an average hand like two pair? Or, saying it another way, don't go looking to make a big pot with an average hand - exercise pot control.
If you want to make a big pot out of a big hand, and a small pot out of a small hand, does it not follow an average hand should be going for an average pot?

Very nice words of wisdom. It's just when I hold that top two pair and there are no flush draws and straight draws on the board, I guess I get overconfident and think my hand is the best hand in teh world at that moment....I guess this is similar to the mistake many beginners make of thinking their top pair Aces are good enough: there are some players who will stay in with their AA no matter how much other players are betting. that's a beginner donk move....maybe doing the same thing with two pair is an intermediate donk move? lol....
 
punctual

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Definitely! Or at least it's my opinion too. But the problem with instinct is to know also how to feel it... Everything related with instinct is hard to put into words. Besides it's a very controversial theme.

We often confuse instinct with what we want to be instinct, some sort of "conscious instinct" that is not instict at all, but an idea. When we take decisions based on that false idea we are doomed. If you want to "read" more accurately your instinct a first step is to control well your emotions, feel absolutely calm (this is to supress the reactions that you may have for other factors). Secondly, you cannot read your instinct all the time, you have to be absolutely focused on poker (so the instinct is based exclusively on poker), however do not feel saturated (meaning with this that you have to be lucid).

That's a key that will open many gates if you learn how to handle it. The only thing you need to be sure about is that you can't control it. (If you do that leads what i said earlier: a false idea of what we think insctinct is).

Well I think everyone on the planet has a certain perception of reality. And in every case, that perception falls short in some way from what reality actually is (otherwise, that person, I believe, would be all-knowing and actually exist as an omnipotent GOD). So in poker, our perceptions are one thing, the reality is another: he whose perception is closest to the reality is the one who wins the money over hte long run. How do we bring our perceptions closer to reality? Through diligent study and a lifetime of experience.
 
tothbopo

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Very wise word to read.

Could you avoid the trips and the set if you schove enough with two high card but then again that may be called fishing and must be too risky.

When you got two pairs no matter high or low that is the lowest made hand in the game (exept one pair made) and I would call it a medium hand.

I follow the idea of small hand small pot average hand average pot big hand Big pot.

And finally monsterhand monsterpot.
 
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Arjonius

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You can't avoid them. Sets happen. What you can do is try to reduce how often they happen, and improve your ability to recognize when they have in order to lose less.
 
MediaBLITZ

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Very nice words of wisdom. It's just when I hold that top two pair and there are no flush draws and straight draws on the board, I guess I get overconfident and think my hand is the best hand in teh world at that moment....I guess this is similar to the mistake many beginners make of thinking their top pair Aces are good enough: there are some players who will stay in with their AA no matter how much other players are betting. that's a beginner donk move....maybe doing the same thing with two pair is an intermediate donk move? lol....

This totally applies if you are totally surprised when the guy flips over his pocket pair - just because it doesn't happen regularly is no reason to not give it consideration on every flop. Take all factors into account. It's one thing to consider he might have a set and reject the notion, but to not have it even cross your mind is not good poker. As one tip, in lower stakes people like to limp in with smaller pocket pairs hoping for that set. You get a super dry flop like you described and someone is acting like King Kong all of a sudden, you have to consider a set in motion.
Don't get me wrong, top two pair is nice, but there is one thing more important than your nice hand - and that's figuring out what his hand might be. Sometimes your wrong. I was wrong last night and it knocked me out. But I did go through the process before I assumed my hand was good.
 
Arjonius

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Don't get me wrong, top two pair is nice, but there is one thing more important than your nice hand - and that's figuring out what his hand might be. Sometimes your wrong. I was wrong last night and it knocked me out. But I did go through the process before I assumed my hand was good.
To expand on this, it's not the best idea to correlate winning with being right and losing with being wrong. For instance, you make a decision that's correct vs an opponent's range (let's assume you've ranged him accurately; if not, it's a different topic). When he turns up with the top of his range and you lose, it doesn't mean your decision was wrong.
 
punctual

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....As one tip, in lower stakes people like to limp in with smaller pocket pairs hoping for that set. You get a super dry flop like you described and someone is acting like King Kong all of a sudden, you have to consider a set in motion....

The problem is that when the flop is that dry, I'm the one acting like King Kong. So i should start to be more weary when I see non-calling stations calling my continuation bets on a dry flop. this is what I think I have to start looking out for....

Thanks
 
Reptar7

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Most set miners are fairly identifiable by their stats, at least at the micros. For the lagtards that get lucky, there is nothing you can really do, just know that they often are paying off and the sets are just luck.
 
Poker Orifice

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I wrote a lengthy response to this (yesterday) but then it accidentally deleted or timed out or whatever... basically was about how one's intuition becomes more developed over time which in turn increases one's hand reading ability.

"It depends"

You gave an example yourself >> something about villain limping & calling a raise preflop. For starters, what range of hands is villain limping with? (lots of weak players will limp in with stuff like sm - med. pp's, AXs).



It feels a bit ironic that my first post deleted because honestly I think you could probably invest more time in other areas & be less concerned about coolers or running into sets with overpairs & TPTK type hands on dry boards.
 
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In my opinion a villain that set a trap like that usually tend to check-raise the hero.So if you happen to come across this scenario maybe you should just fold.
 
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You are always going to lose some money when you flop top-two against a set, but you can minimize your loses by actually thinking about your opponent and his intentions. Try putting yourself into his place. For example:

You hold AK on the button, CO raises and you 3-bet, it's folded to him and he calls. Flop comes AK9. Villain checks and it's your turn. Now you have to think what hands will be calling your bet and how big it should be. Well, since the flop is not so draw heavy you c-bet half pot in order to get calls from hands like AQ, AJ and KQ. Instead of calling, he raises. Now, think about what would he be raising with? You have to base your decision on his stats and observations. Is he raising with K9 here? Does he call 3-bets with K9 OOP? Does he overvalue top pairs?

Even if he comes out on top with a set, but you knew he could be doing this with a lot more hands that you're beating, in other words: he had the top of his range, then it's just unlucky, but if you played your hand so aggressively and got it in just because you were holding a two-pair on a dry flop then it's straight up bad poker.

Remember, poker is a game of people
 
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punctual

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It feels a bit ironic that my first post deleted because honestly I think you could probably invest more time in other areas & be less concerned about coolers or running into sets with overpairs & TPTK type hands on dry boards.

Are you speaking of my play in particular? I mean, in hands you've played against me? If so, i would absolutely LOVE to hear what you ahve to say. If there are leaks you see in my play please let me know.

I only mention this because of my recent experiences with my two pairs being magically beat out by a set once we all turn over our cards... I am confident that there are many areas I need improvement with and would appreciate any help you can offer, even if it is just a simple paragraph onf things you have noticed that I should work on. thanks
 
el_magiciann

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I dont think if anybody can fold his 2PAIR when he got AK and the flop came 3 A K , its just unreal to think that somebody can fold this hand even if the hero (AK) is shortstack or deepstack or no matter...
 
punctual

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I dont think if anybody can fold his 2PAIR when he got AK and the flop came 3 A K , its just unreal to think that somebody can fold this hand even if the hero (AK) is shortstack or deepstack or no matter...

But we must find a way how...lol....because I think this is what professional poker players are able to do...somehow, they know better.....
 
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