small pocket pair play

freeringo

freeringo

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I am seeing more and more players calling all ins with small pocket pairs. Am I missing something? I fold them everytime to a raise.
These are good players doing this at times, I am confused to the value of small pocket pair.
 
Deco

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Tournament or cash game?

I wouldn't call an all in with them unless your really short stacked vs an aggressive player. In general I just set mine based on how big their stack is compared to their raise.

It's a little more complex than this but this is my rough thought process.

Stack Size
20x Raise: Set mine all day
15x Raise: Set mine with position or vs a strong range
10x Raise: fold
 
fletchdad

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Ringo, what stakes and what game? Calling an all in in a cash game with full stack with a small PP, hmmmmmmmmmm. It needs to happen to me more.....
 
woohoo sue

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I've also seen this more and more in free roll tournies (about all i play). this play is rampant in them and should never scratch head over it. Many play those as able to bingo away and hope for the triple up and push ppl around or out and on to other pastures.

If you are talking higher limits you will have to ask another.
 
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Spikelad

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ringo can you update us please on what format of the game youare playing.
 
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Humps

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In cash games I think that's pretty stupid unless the other player is a lunatic. Even then I'm not so sure.

Tournament play it has a greater role to play.
 
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LukeSilver

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Really does depend on stack size what you will probably notice is the good players who are calling shoves with small pairs are short stacked.

Tournament poker is about survival if you play high risk you can brake if you play low risk you can blind out. the aim is to try and take advantage of what comes opportunities you get, whilst the rest of the time maintaining stack size. if your healthy you don't want to call 10 bb of to a shove with small pair because you want to maintain Healthy. if however you are not healthy you need to gamble. if I had 12 bb for example id call of with 66. if I had 30+ I would not.

with 12 BB i could soon have a stack of 6bb and then I only back to 12 BB again if i double up. I cant wait for a hand I may be going out but I have to gamble.

with 30BB its different. Dan Harrington mentioned about Ms in his tournament books most decent Tournament players are pretty much following a mildly modified version of this.

If you read his Books you will grasp why.
 
freeringo

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In cash games I think that's pretty stupid unless the other player is a lunatic. Even then I'm not so sure.

Tournament play it has a greater role to play.
sorry I didn't get back to thread have had bad back pain last few weeks with a bulging L5 disc.
2 days now off pain killers and I can think again.
I have been playing $5 and under games.
Since posting this I lost on final hand in Gals vs Guys Heads up vs 44. But since then I have been experimenting with small pairs and won a tourney with 33 vs AK the other day.
I sure don't want to make a habit of this type of play, but when it's cheap I can understand the logic.
I just never really played that way before no matter what level I played at. You imput is helpful thanks
 
Four Dogs

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Tournament or cash game?

I wouldn't call an all in with them unless your really short stacked vs an aggressive player. In general I just set mine based on how big their stack is compared to their raise.

It's a little more complex than this but this is my rough thought process.

Stack Size
20x Raise: Set mine all day
15x Raise: Set mine with position or vs a strong range
10x Raise: fold
Not sure I get this. If the pfr is 20x bb you set mine?
 
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If u are in chip problem call it, if u are dominating dont call it on all in, play safe :) do some rase or check but dont call all in, my opinion...
 
blueskies

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Nah folding them is fine. You're at best a small fav and often a big dog.

I've had mofos crack my QQ+ with stuff like 22 or 55, but you'll beat them more often than not.
 
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In aggro 6m games, regs will sometimes stack 22-66 type hands. The scenario goes something like this:

A. Regs open a huge range from CO/BTN
B. Regs respond to wide opening ranges from CO/BTN by 3-betting light.
C. Regs in CO/BTN respond by 4-betting light.
D. Regs respond to regs 4-betting light by 5-bet bluff-shoving 22.

If we give CO/BTN a pretty nitty calling range of JJ+/AQ+, then 22 has 37% equity when called. Compare that to ~29% for a hand like AJs/KQs.

In tournaments, small pairs are good restealing hands from the blinds vs. BTN opens.
 
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Foxhound3857

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If you're the first one into the pot, raise. Gives you more opportunities to win the pot preflop, since everyone may fold, and postflop, since you can either hit your set and slowplay, or represent a big hand like an overpair or top pair with a continuation bet in the hopes that you can take it down right there (assuming it's checked to you). More often than not, when you c-bet, your opponent is going to fold unless they hit the flop good or are on a reasonable draw, and if they do come over the top, it's an easy fold.

That's generally how I play small pocket pairs. If you're the first one in, raise. If you're facing a raise, it's a fold unless you have good position. Never shove with a small pair unless you're short stacked and desperate for a double up, as it will often get outdrawn.
 
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baudib1

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If you're the first one into the pot, raise. Gives you more opportunities to win the pot preflop, since everyone may fold, and postflop, since you can either hit your set and slowplay, or represent a big hand like an overpair or top pair with a continuation bet in the hopes that you can take it down right there (assuming it's checked to you). More often than not, when you c-bet, your opponent is going to fold unless they hit the flop good or are on a reasonable draw, and if they do come over the top, it's an easy fold.

That's generally how I play small pocket pairs. If you're the first one in, raise. If you're facing a raise, it's a fold unless you have good position. Never shove with a small pair unless you're short stacked and desperate for a double up, as it will often get outdrawn.

Are you talking MTTs or cash? If it's MTTs then open-folding small pairs is generally going to be best. If it's cash and you're folding small pairs from the blinds vs. an UTG raise you should re-evaluate.
 
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Are you talking MTTs or cash? If it's MTTs then open-folding small pairs is generally going to be best. If it's cash and you're folding small pairs from the blinds vs. an UTG raise you should re-evaluate.

I'm never folding a small pair in the blinds or button unless I'm facing an all-in. But I'm not calling a raise with a small pair if I'm UTG or in the Cutoff/Hijack. Too many people to act behind me.

A small pair to me is 2's, 3's, or 4's. 5's and up is worth calling a raise for me, since this sort of hand could still be best with a low-card flop.
 
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AllInDom

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I see All ins preflop with pair of 2's. Logically any pair has a better chance than AK. Most persons would not hesitate AK all in preflop. With a small pair sometimes going all in pereflop makes sense. If you wait for the flop chances of a set is low. Chances you have top pair is low. All in is risky play.
 
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low pocket pairs

Yes i have seen small ad mid pocket pairs win alot on merge poker quite abit, i wouldnt push all in with them but limp or call small raise i see them win way more then big pp do
 
vegasjj

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The one thing I do not do with small pr is limp (there is exception to that too - but not a lot) talking tournament - a shove from position - especially when getting low on chips is something I would often do.
As far as calling with small pr a big raise or a shove... I would not call very often, but if I have a good read on the person that shoved and again if I am in need of chips - then I'd call.
 
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baudib1

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I'm never folding a small pair in the blinds or button unless I'm facing an all-in. But I'm not calling a raise with a small pair if I'm UTG or in the Cutoff/Hijack. Too many people to act behind me.

A small pair to me is 2's, 3's, or 4's. 5's and up is worth calling a raise for me, since this sort of hand could still be best with a low-card flop.

If you're talking SNGs then you need to retool your whole game. Calling small pps to either set mine or bluffcatch is not going to be profitable in most cases. This is probably the biggest/most common leak by far that tournament players have.
 
freeringo

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looks like small pocket pairs will continue to be played differently by everyone.
think I will start calling raises more often with them than I use too
 
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Small pair is about even money against over cards and dominated by top pair. Long term, the all-in movers are at a slight disadvantage. But yeah, I've encountered a lot of crazy aggressive moves with small pair, especially at lower NL SNGs. As far as strategy against is concerned, and like some folks have already mentioned, I'll take a look at my stack size before taking on a small pair's all-in move. With a big stack I'll call 'em all day long :)
 
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going all-in with pocket pairs, playing pocket pairs

At a full table, if it's cheap to see a flop and the pair is smaller than a nine I will generally just limp in hoping to hit a cheap set. I will also sustain some light bets and raises. If there are no overcards to the pair on the flop then I will usually bet heavily to test the waters. If there is one overcard I will bet slightly less heavily; two overcards I might just check. If there is an aggressive at the table and I flop nothing, I will often put in a minimum blocking bet in an attempt to keep him honest and buy me more time. If a pair comes on the flop I will almost always bet... a paired flop has too much bluffing equity and significantly reduces the chance that someone has outflopped your pair. If someone hit a set or better, they will usually tell you eventually, if not right away then on a later street.

Betting after the flop with any pair can pay big dividends later if you hit your set on the turn or river and bet harder than you did on the previous street. You will appear more as if you are trying to push someone off a draw instead of having just hit a set. With blank or dry boards, often your opponent will interpret this as you having made two pair, and if they've made a stronger two pair, they may go all-in against you.

If a small stack goes all-in and I have them covered at least 4x, I will generally call with any pair.

Pocket pairs are strong when fresh but spoil quickly. Most don't rank very highly on the "premium hands" list designed by Sklansky because, against more than two players at a full table, they generally become worthless very quickly. But the fact remains that, against any other random hand, pairs are the thirteen most powerful starting hands you can be dealt. If even one of your pocket deuces is of the same suit as your opponent's AKs, for example, then it is a tiny favorite to win in a head-to-head (49.96% vs 49.37%, and they will tie .67% of the time). Outside of blocking straight range, the pairs become more powerful. If one of your pocket pair of sevens, for example, shares the same suit as your opponent's AKs, you are a 52.28% favorite to win. If they do not share a suit, they are still a 51.95% vs. 47.71% favorite (.34% tie). To me, that small margin justifies any odds being offered me in a head-to-head, as very often you will be facing an ace with high kicker, or two
suited or unsuited face cards. All of these are slight dogs against virtually any pocket pair. If you call against a better pair, though, you're usually doomed, so try to get to know your opponent and his tendencies before your entire stack is riding on the decision to call with a pair of treys.

There is a great video on Youtube that demonstrates the power of a small pocket pair, as played by one of the greatest players of all time: Doyle Brunson. Google "youtube CybYR8dKQJM" and it will come up as "Doyle Brunson"
 
teepack

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I have noticed in tourneys in Bovada that people with pocket pairs that are obviously beaten will continue to call big bets, sometimes risking their entire stack, chasing a set. Stupid is as stupid does.
 
Staneff

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Already 2nd time leaving cardschat tournament on 1st hand after calling all-in with QQ today on full tilt poker and with KK a week ago in PS. I think I should start folding any pairs on any raise fre-flop.
 
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