Single Table SNG's

Right... I play ultra tight til the final three... My question is... when you hit the final 4 or 5 players sometimes I have not played a hand my M general below 10. So i generally like to fold or shove. What range should I be looking to shoving?

in that situation i would shove with hands like:

A7, K10, qj, any pair, mid-high suited connectors, high semi connectors.

since my effective M is 4-5 if i have 10 m.

edit: i should have said, these hands if everyone had folded to you.

Shoving range. AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT, AK AQ AJ AT.
Playing to tight can have that problem of running short.
Find who you can pick on at the table.
If the games are under 5$ STTs you can just about steal every time your on the button. When it's folded to you.
One key i would like to make, that stealing will help keep your M in the range that's safe. Also even with an M=10 you can still do a 3X raise just remember to add 1BB per limper..

I know what you mean, but you may be too tight for your own good sometimes. You can often have good chances to steal pots, I mean, you know how it goes. And you can shove easier the later your position is. But I think you know all this.

I dont have a set strategy for STT SnG (well I do, but I vary a lot, depending). I rely a lot on how the table dynamics go. I dont need the blinds to be that high to steal, if I see that I can do it. I raise on the BB if I am called by the button and/or SB, and they bow to pressure and so on.

I do play very tight the first 3-4 levels, but will raise with my PP or high SC if I see a tight table.

But to kinda answer your question, it really depends on what has happened at the table in general, what has happened in any particular hand so far - has it been folded to me etc - and position. My range is radically different UTG then it is on the button with a table of folders. And my stack size will dictate as well.

But as I said, it is SO situational for me, that your question is hard to answer in a general way, for me anyway.

kidkvno1 said:

Shoving range. AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT, AK AQ AJ AT.
Playing to tight can have that problem of running short.
Find who you can pick on at the table.
If the games are under 5$ STTs you can just about steal every time your on the button. When it's folded to you.
One key i would like to make, that stealing will help keep your M in the range that's safe. Also even with an M=10 you can still do a 3X raise just remember to add 1BB per limper..

Click to expand...

What if there is 6 limpers?

It's a pretty vague question, it relies on factors like, stack size, opponants, position, game payouts, structure(turbo /non turbo), I mean, saying a range of this or that, can be totally wrong. It's very ICM influenced, and its kind of hard to explain in one post, i suggest reading up, and learning to use software like SNG wizard...

WiZZiM said:

It's a pretty vague question, it relies on factors like, stack size, opponants, position, game payouts, structure(turbo /non turbo), I mean, saying a range of this or that, can be totally wrong. It's very ICM influenced, and its kind of hard to explain in one post, i suggest reading up, and learning to use software like SNG wizard...

Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^

Hes the guy to listen to for SnG advice. Search CC for wizzims threads, lots of real good stuff.

fletchdad said:

^^^^^^^^

Hes the guy to listen to for SnG advice. Search CC for wizzims threads, lots of real good stuff.

Click to expand...

Well I'm reading Collin Moshman Sit and go strategy. Cover a far amount of the book. Completely changed my game around. Seem to folding correctly etc... Just getting to same place as describe in my first post.

kidkvno1 said:

Shoving range. AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT, AK AQ AJ AT.
Playing to tight can have that problem of running short.
Find who you can pick on at the table.
If the games are under 5$ STTs you can just about steal every time your on the button. When it's folded to you.
One key i would like to make, that stealing will help keep your M in the range that's safe. Also even with an M=10 you can still do a 3X raise just remember to add 1BB per limper..

Click to expand...

Sorry but I totally disagree with this ^ (which part of it?... umm.. pretty much all of it).
Firstly, when playing SNG's we're referring to #of bb's (M is rarely used to discuss SNG play). If we're playing on a site where there's antes in STT/SNG (ie. pokerstars) then we adjust our shoving range by about 1bb.
We can profitably open shove ALOT wider than is suggested here (I mean ALOT).
Raise/folding with <10bb's is terrible.
... add 1bb per limper?? For sure in early level play but in end game, when we're on bubble?? a) who's limping? b) if you've got 10bb's and there's a limper & you're playing your hand... you're never raising 3bb+1bb.. you're shoving or folding in pretty much every case
Shoving is also player-read dependant (ie. if you see a guy who's calling raises in early-mid levels with A-rag..... this is often the same kinda player who is calling wide in late game play (but not always obv, sometimes this type of player does the opposite... loose in early-mid levels.. tight in late levels). Something to consider... do we figure villain to be ICM aware (or ICM dumb).. & if they are ICM aware... do we figure that they think we're ICM aware?
I've got a couple of push charts that I've used in the past (& helped to understand +EV shoves a bunch more in late game SNG play),.. one of them coming from a guy who's play I highly respect (has been on top of leaderboards quite often).
I could give you a couple of examples here.....
CO (8bb)
Top 28.5% (22+,A2+,KT, K9s, QTQ9s,JT,J9s)
CO (12bb)
Top 8.5% (66+,AT+,A9s+)
BTN (8bb)
Top 44% (22+,A2+,K6,K4s,Q7,Q5s.....76s)
BTN (6bb)
top60% (22+,A2,K2,Q2,J2,T6,T4s..... 53s)
BTN (5bb)
atc top 100% (atc = any two cards)
more examples?... okay then with 5 players left (first to act is HJ (hi-jack) which would be utg with 5 left)
HJ (10bb)
Top7.5% (77+,AJ+)
HJ (8bb)
Top 8.5% (66+, AT+,A9s+) & suited broadways
HJ (6bb)
Top 28.5% (see above or just punch in 28.5% on Pokerstove)... fold AXo hands though!!!
OP.. is this what you're looking for?

fletchdad said:

I dont have a set strategy for STT SnG (well I do, but I vary a lot, depending). I rely a lot on how the table dynamics go. I dont need the blinds to be that high to steal, if I see that I can do it. I raise on the BB if I am called by the button and/or SB, and they bow to pressure and so on.

...

But to kinda answer your question, it really depends on what has happened at the table in general, what has happened in any particular hand so far - has it been folded to me etc - and position. My range is radically different UTG then it is on the button with a table of folders. And my stack size will dictate as well.

But as I said, it is SO situational for me, that your question is hard to answer in a general way, for me anyway.

Click to expand...

This.

You have to take advantage of your opponents tendancies. And as the table gets smaller, your hand range should be opening up. At STTs I do well at all stages, 9-7 handed, 6-5 handed, and 2-4 handed are all different games.

A lot of my opponents have trouble adjusting as the field thins out (which seems to be your problem. AJo, for instance, isn't that valuable with 7-9 players, but with 2-4 it's a whole lot better.

If you start with a certain hand range and maintain it through the entire tournament, you are going to be too easy to steamroll, that is I'll raise with hands like 76s, where the same hand you'll fold your J9s. Not that J9s is like gold, but every time I pick up the blinds and antes my stack grows. You might open your range up a little bit.

At some point in the game it has to be less about your holdings and more about the tendancies of the other players, especially in a STT as the numbers dwindle.

WG

WiZZiM said:

What if there is 6 limpers?

Click to expand...

At that point i am all-in or i am folding.

Poker Orifice said:

Sorry but I totally disagree with this ^ (which part of it?... umm.. pretty much all of it).
Firstly, when playing SNG's we're referring to #of bb's (M is rarely used to discuss SNG play). If we're playing on a site where there's antes in STT/SNG (ie. Pokerstars) then we adjust our shoving range by about 1bb.
We can profitably open shove ALOT wider than is suggested here (I mean ALOT).
Raise/folding with <10bb's is terrible.
... add 1bb per limper?? For sure in early level play but in end game, when we're on bubble?? a) who's limping? b) if you've got 10bb's and there's a limper & you're playing your hand... you're never raising 3bb+1bb.. you're shoving or folding in pretty much every case

Click to expand...

I am only shoving, if i got more then one limper.

sharkyo01 said:

Well I'm reading Collin Moshman Sit and go strategy. Cover a far amount of the book. Completely changed my game around. Seem to folding correctly etc... Just getting to same place as describe in my first post.

Click to expand...

Ive read it twice and think I will read it at least 1 more time (and review marked sections as well). I got so much more out of it the second time. It turned my game around too. I think my biggest SNG leak is that I dont analyze my play enough, like replaying my games.

Well, my leaks are so legion that it is hard to really pinpoint my biggest one.....

kidkvno1 said:

At that point i am all-in or i am folding.



I am only shoving, if i got more then one limper.

Click to expand...

....what??

f it.. I give up....

fletchdad said:

Ive read it twice and think I will read it at least 1 more time (and review marked sections as well). I got so much more out of it the second time. It turned my game around too. I think my biggest SNG leak is that I dont analyze my play enough, like replaying my games.

Well, my leaks are so legion that it is hard to really pinpoint my biggest one.....

Click to expand...

I'm reading it bloody slow so because of my dyslexia and picking out 2 things to concentrate on for a couple games. Seems to really of improved my game played like 6 games yesterday and cashed in 4 of them. But as you said I think its time to start taking notes. Even Bullet points that I have in front of me when I play.

Yep, if you want to seriously get better, taking notes plus reviewing games is crucial. When i first started out i was doing a ratio of playing to studying/reviewing of 1:1, Like, play for an hour study/review for an hour.. I think for you guys though a ratio of 2:1 is fine, an hour playing to half hour reviewing/studying. That is what i do when im playing sng currently. Of course to really be able to review, you need to actually know decent strat, which takes a bit of time. Also posting hands can be really helpful, or finding people who are willing to review a HH for you, can be helpful too. (be careful, heaps of people will review, who don't know what they are doing themselves.)

Notes are super helpful, Most of the note systems are really good these days too. All i try to do is pay attention (as much as possible) and note something down about guys who play a hand differantly than yourself. Like, does he limp/fold to raises often, Does he tighten up around the bubble etc. noting all this stuff down is really helpful if you face that particular opponant again.