shoving during the bubble

fly2tsky

fly2tsky

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So I was in a live tournament today, top 3 ITM. I was 4th out of 6. Blind 2,000/4,000 ante 500 and my stack was 20k. Was dealt 34s on UTG +1 and shoved it. The question is should I do it to steal the pot or not? SB did call me with A7s though.
 
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MREM

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34s feels pretty weak to be shoving with considering there are 4 people behind you.

I use this as a guideline : Jennifear's MTT push/fold chart.
It has ranges for pushing or folding when low stacked. Not sure what it is based on.

So 12.5% ante 5BB Hijack on the chart, gives 87s as worst hand to shove with with 4 people behind you yet to act.

But it all depends on what the people behind you play like, what their stacks are, ...
 
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Dan Lucas

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I think you let it go with your holdings. You are trying to steal, but obviously players here are willing to call with a weak ace. From early position you are trying to represent a strong hand, but if your opponents are not thinking through and are playing their cards, not the other players you really would like to have a decent holding.
 
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Sidetracked

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There are all kinds of charts and programs available that tell you whether it's 'correct' to shove there.
 
Diegol

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That's what happen when you do that, is a risk and you have to choose the moment because you can face an all in from the blinds to protect itself
 
Shumkoolie

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I'm a little surprised that this hasn't been mentioned, but the call with A7s is borderline in my opinion. Given that you only have 5 bb's left, the shove in that spot with that hand is good. Even if you're called by AK, you still have 37% equity. You're better off having a hand like that vs. say AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, QJ, QT because those hands are almost always going to have worse equity than 34.

Plus, you're going to be in the blinds soon anyway, and if you fold and wait an additional hand, that's one extra player you'll have to get your open shove through. But you also want to ask yourself how you got yourself into that spot as well. Did you fold better hands previous to this particular hand?

I feel like there's an explanation needed here to understand how you got into this spot in the first place.
 
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karl coakley

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I'm a little surprised that this hasn't been mentioned, but the call with A7s is borderline in my opinion. Given that you only have 5 bb's left, the shove in that spot with that hand is good. Even if you're called by AK, you still have 37% equity. You're better off having a hand like that vs. say AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, QJ, QT because those hands are almost always going to have worse equity than 34.

Plus, you're going to be in the blinds soon anyway, and if you fold and wait an additional hand, that's one extra player you'll have to get your open shove through. But you also want to ask yourself how you got yourself into that spot as well. Did you fold better hands previous to this particular hand?

I feel like there's an explanation needed here to understand how you got into this spot in the first place.

I agree with Shumkoolie, it was a loose call and you weren't that big a dog. I personally don't have a problem with the play, many times you won't be called. As Shumkoolie mentioned, it would have been better to start shoving a little earlier, but sometimes you are just card dead.
 
antonis32123

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UTG , now you have some fold equity ofcourse , but on the other hand you have not 2 , not 3 , but 5 more players to call/fold . Some might understands this , so they don't expect you to have a great hand shoving now from UTG , they see your stack and your position , they expect it's more possible to have ,not so low hand , but a medium category hand . I would fold and wait for better cards in the next 4, 5 or 6 hands .
 
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skaterick

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I don't like the move at all ! I also think questions about 'how you got into this spot ' are irrelevant .
 
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.. i don't think questions of how you got in this spot are all that irrelevant , .. someone with 5bbs does not have time to wait ... , i do think a utg shove might look stronger to people paying attention but are they paying attention lol ... even if they call you are def gonna be live so not such bad equity ... i think with 5bbs you don't have much choice left really .. , so getting it in with as much equity as it turned out you had is probably as good a situation as any
 
fly2tsky

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To be more specific:
_ my image was a really TAG player since the beginning. I fold AJs to a shove, fold QKo on a AAK8 board back door flush draw because I knew villain had flush alr, etc...
_ Avg stack was 34k
_ Turbo tournament, 4 mins left to the next blind

I've watched them all. The BB was a really weak players so he wont call my shoving for sure. Just curious about SB, with A7s.

So, im wondering how would we trick fish players like the A7s above? Like should we shout, show a stupid confidently face, push chips like a maniac, etc or whatsoever?
 
Gabinho12345

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43s is too weak to shove from utg+1 when there are 4 players behind to act.
 
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gracinda2016

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A diferença entre ganhar um torneio estão nessas decisões eu particurlamente tomo muito cuidado na fase final para não se arrepender depois
 
TeUnit

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think i would have waited for a the next hand
 
Shumkoolie

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I don't like the move at all ! I also think questions about 'how you got into this spot ' are irrelevant .

Why is it irrelevant? Any move you make in a tournament impacts your future tournament life. For instance, what if this particular player made a mistake in an earlier hand that caused them to be shortstacked? There's a direct correlation right there.

The bottom line is, all players make mistakes that put them in spots such as this. Maybe it didn't necessarily happen that way for this player but there's a reason they are so shortstacked.

43s is too weak to shove from utg+1 when there are 4 players behind to act.

Perhaps somebody with ICMizer can run some simulations here to determine if what you're saying is correct. But, for example, you get called by AT/AJ/AQ/AK, your equity is in the 36% range. It's not great, but it's close to a hand like JT in this situation.

think i would have waited for a the next hand

OP was UTG+1, and if you wait another hand, that's one additional player you'd have to get through. I think arguments could be made for what you're saying as well. It's hard to say that there's a right answer here because OP knows the table dynamic, and how he played and if that shove is profitable or not.
 
OzExorcist

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Why is it irrelevant? Any move you make in a tournament impacts your future tournament life. For instance, what if this particular player made a mistake in an earlier hand that caused them to be shortstacked? There's a direct correlation right there.

The bottom line is, all players make mistakes that put them in spots such as this. Maybe it didn't necessarily happen that way for this player but there's a reason they are so shortstacked.

I agree 100% with this, and with the idea that hero might've needed to do something different earlier to avoid getting into this situation.

At the same time though, I suspect the words "turbo live tournament" probably have a lot to do with it. There's only about 50BB total in play so everyone's short stacked.

To be more specific:
_ my image was a really TAG player since the beginning. I fold AJs to a shove, fold QKo on a AAK8 board back door flush draw because I knew villain had flush alr, etc...
_ Avg stack was 34k
_ Turbo tournament, 4 mins left to the next blind

I've watched them all. The BB was a really weak players so he wont call my shoving for sure. Just curious about SB, with A7s.

So, im wondering how would we trick fish players like the A7s above? Like should we shout, show a stupid confidently face, push chips like a maniac, etc or whatsoever?

So the thing I'm wondering is you know you've been playing TAG, but do you know for sure your opponents have noticed? Did you show those hands to show them what "big" laydowns you were making? My general experience is a lot of live players don't really make reads - or even if they do, they're quick to ignore them. I've got no idea how sophisticated your opponents are, but don't make the mistake of thinking they're all paying as much attention to reads and playing styles as you are.

Which leads to your last question, I don't think it matters. Try not to give off any obvious "weak" tells I guess, but at the end of the day if you're up against the kind of player who'll call you down with ace rag then the manner in which you make your bet probably won't make a shred of difference: they're gonna just look down, see an ace and instacall.
 
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