Shove or Fold

B

bull

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I see many articles, especially for sit and go's that say something like in this position you can shove/call with 88+ , 9.10o+, 78s+ etc

How are those ranges determined?
 
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sillymunchie

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the ranges are determined based on a standard players shoving range
for instance your given A A, K K, or Q Q, your not really going to shove cus you want value most of the time, so if somebody shoves they most likely have something less then this or a drawing hand.

on the other side of the coin you have shoving ranges for yourself
you can shove with a pair of 8s because an opponent in theory needs better to call your shove (dependant on stack sizes) you can win by all opponents folding which would be a nice increase in likes of MTTs and STTs, or you can win by showdown, in most instance if somebody calls they usually have a hand like A K - A J, bad players even less then this, and therefore it becomes +EV cus you win chips when they dont call, and half the time when they do call.

if your shoving A A aswell they cant take that out of your arsenal so when you shove they in theory need a really strong hand to call your shoves
 
DrazaFFT

DrazaFFT

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the ranges are determined by your position at the table and more important the stack you have compared to BB (number of big blinds you have in your stack, for example 20+BB, 12BB, 6BB and less) the range of hands gets wider with less and less of BB you have left in stack...
 
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bull

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I know the concepts. My question was if there was a scientific way to calculate push shove ranges? Or is it just random based on playing ranges and stack sizes?
 
Aleksei

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It's mostly based on statistical analysis and inductive reasoning. There are some very complex mathematical solutions that can be used to determine the exact correct range in any spot, but poker is too complex to solve in its entirety. Good poker strategy is not really random, though obviously it has to take random variables into account.
 
NvrBlufn

NvrBlufn

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I don't see anyone here has said it yet, but I think the Independent Chip Model should be the very next topic you dive into. I have just recently begun to understand how it functions properly (math was never my best subject, suffice i to say I have gotten far with a basic understanding of holdem related math and pot odds)

I still struggle to use these kinds of tools regularly... found a website that might provide the kind of answer you are looking for: http://www.icmpoker.com/

Specifically check out the applicator and such... Hope this helps

There are a lot more resources for it, google ICM and find one that works for you!
 
NvrBlufn

NvrBlufn

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I recall reading somewhere in the last few days how a tournament move is determined by +cEV which is to say how well is it expected to add to your chip stack. (c=chips)

Before you get too short-stacked and lose all fold equity in a tourney, you might face situations where you need to play more aggressively, so shoving with a made hand or a strong hand like the ranges you specified works really well in certain spots.

If you know that you will be facing elimination or become crippled in the tourney if you don't make some moves, ask yourself: "If I shoved here with this same hand twenty times in a row and got called, would I be likely to have more or less chips in the end?" I think that is positive chip expected value, combined with ICM this becomes a serious edge in your tournament strategy.

Hopefully others will agree as well.
 
GrandMaestro7

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I think it was in Brunsons Super System where he had Mike Caro draw up two different shove tables. For short stacks (<10BBs) and larger stacks.

The very important footnote considered positions, and also a knowledge of your opponents.
 
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