should i have called this?

blueskies

blueskies

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I had a 4 outter hit on the river against me not long ago, so when this dude called me down and shoved on the river when a third diamond hit, I folded. Most times I call here, I lose, so I folded. Did I screw up? Should I have just shoved on the turn?

I've had terrible luck with premium hands lately... I really don't know what to do anymore. Maybe just shove preflop and take the blinds? Because if I go to the flop, I lose them.


Blinds:
$0.00/$0.00
Site: Pokerstars
Dealt to BB:K♣ A♠
Sklansky group 2
Preflop:
3 players fold.
BTN calls [$0.05]
SB calls [$0.03]
Hero raises $0.20 to $0.25
BTN calls [$0.20]
SB calls [$0.20]
Total folds this street: 3
Potsize: $0.75
Flop:
K♦ A♦ Q♠
SB: checks
Hero bets [$0.65]
1 players fold.
SB calls [$0.65]
Total folds this street: 1
Potsize: $2.05
Turn:
6♥
SB: checks
Hero bets [$1]
SB calls [$1]
Potsize: $4.05
River:
7♦
SB bets [$1.35]
1 players fold.
Uncalled bet ($1.35) returned to SB
SB collected $3.90 from pot
Total folds this street: 1

NOT TOO MANY HANDS LATER, I had KK and lose to 44. What can I do? Fold them preflop?


Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: Pokerstars
Dealt to MP:K♣ K♠
Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
1 players fold.
Hero raises $0.10 to $0.15
1 players fold.
SB calls [$0.13]
1 players folded.
Total folds this street: 3
Potsize: $0.35
Flop: 5♠ 4♦ Q♠
SB: checks Hero bets [$0.26]
1 players fold.
SB calls [$0.26]
Potsize: $0.87
Turn: 2♥
SB: checks Hero bets [$0.30] [ all-in ]
SB calls [$0.30]
Potsize: $1.47
River: 3♥
Results:
SB shows three of a kind, Fours: 4♥ 4♣ Hero doesn't show.
SB collected $1.42 from pot
 
Last edited:
dcor

dcor

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can someone move this to hand analysis?
 
slycbnew

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I don't think this needs to be moved to HA...

In the first hand, I'd bet bigger on the turn - but I agree w the fold on the river. Second hand is just unlucky - if you were full stacked (which you really ought to have been), you would have lost your stack.

One of the toughest things to learn in poker is the idea of not being results oriented. You can get your money in good all the time and still lose. The trick is to focus on whether you're making the right decisions or not - over time, those correct decisions will pay off even if you lose in the short term (one of my favorite ideas from The Poker Mindset - in the short run, luck is king - in the long run, skill is king).

Folding KK pf in the second hand would be atrocious (actually, folding anywhere given effective stack size would be atrocious). Calling the river in the first hand w a bluff catcher (that's really all your top two pair is on the river) would be marginal at best without reads.

The fact that you lost money in both hands is unfortunate, but is not relevant to whether you played them correctly.
 
zek

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Why fold the first hand? They bet like 1/3 of the pot. You beat a lot of probable hands here and really only lose to TJ. I'd call that $1.35 and don't think the turn bet was terrible but at the low range of what I'd be likely to bet. Hand 2 I'd raise more preflop but you're still likely to get a call. What do you know about the played with the set in hand 2? Did you feel any danger coming?

-Raymond
 
slycbnew

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Why fold the first hand? They bet like 1/3 of the pot. You beat a lot of probable hands here and really only lose to TJ.

The flush made on the river. We're bluff catching if we call, which isn't necessarily wrong - but Villain's line is very consistent w a fd.
 
zek

zek

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totally missed that. still wasn't much of a bet. did the villain win most of their showdowns before this hand?
 
jmasterrich

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One of the toughest things to learn in poker is the idea of not being results oriented. You can get your money in good all the time and still lose. The trick is to focus on whether you're making the right decisions or not - over time, those correct decisions will pay off even if you lose in the short term (one of my favorite ideas from The Poker Mindset - in the short run, luck is king - in the long run, skill is king).

The fact that you lost money in both hands is unfortunate, but is not relevant to whether you played them correctly.

+ 1000000000
really good advice.
On the first hand I think you you should bet more on the turn, you have to realize that there is a draw on the board and you have to make players pay heavily for it so the 3/4 times that his flush doesnt hit, you get paid. However, IMO i think that a call on the river isnt so bad, I dont know if you had any reads on this player but I think calling his all in is reasonable since he only bets a 1/4 of the pot and we are still ahead of any Ax and worse two pair ie KQ, A7, AQ. I just think with that the villan is getting it in here more than 25% of the time with a worse two pair or Ace even though the flush is rather obvious.
The second hand there isn't much you can do about its just variance and just read what I quoted from slycbnew, cause its right on point
 
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1st hand -> I'd go all-in on the turn, because villain does not have a set for sure. Preflop action does not reveal any big hands,so QQ or KK is impossible.

I think JT will also raise our flop bet, because JT does not want to see a diamond and JT will expect people to pay him with their top pair or top 2.

The only option left is a weaker made hand or a draw. I'm going all-in on the turn to pickup the pot and move to the next hand.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Hand 1, shove the turn.

Hand 2 shove the flop. There is virtually no turn that you will not be making or calling the 1/2 pot all in so there is a draw in, you are susceptible to a guy who cant fold an ace and if the flop is called you are getting it in on the turn anyway.. so just go all in (often players will look this up lighter than they would a normal sized bet)
 
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Lately all i do is get bsed out of hand when im ahead the entire time and ive started to fix this problem with little things it also depends on how much $$ you got sitting in front of you but 1ST hand.. i would have bet on turn 2/3 pot seeing as how the turn was a 2nd diamond and on the river you know he has just been calling since the start of the hand it isnt very likely after a good size bet he would have stayed in the hand with not even hitting a pair on that flop and then the turn another call and river a slight shove just a bit bigger than your bet on turn personally i would have atleast called so its not as if im giving away the pot two pair is a good hand and its not a very high percentage (atleast for people besides me) that the other guy is holding a flush
 
slycbnew

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1st hand -> I'd go all-in on the turn, because villain does not have a set for sure. Preflop action does not reveal any big hands,so QQ or KK is impossible.

I think JT will also raise our flop bet, because JT does not want to see a diamond and JT will expect people to pay him with their top pair or top 2.

The only option left is a weaker made hand or a draw. I'm going all-in on the turn to pickup the pot and move to the next hand.

Hand 1, shove the turn.

The only reason we should shove the turn is if we specifically expect a flush draw, or a hand worse than top two pair, to call a shove. Wanting to pick up the pot here by shoving is a mistake, the pot isn't big enough to justify this, you want draws to continue at incorrect odds - so you want to make the biggest bet you can that you expect will be called by worse hands/draws - I don't believe shoving qualifies.
 
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The only reason we should shove the turn is if we specifically expect a flush draw, or a hand worse than top two pair, to call a shove. Wanting to pick up the pot here by shoving is a mistake, the pot isn't big enough to justify this, you want draws to continue at incorrect odds - so you want to make the biggest bet you can that you expect will be called by worse hands/draws - I don't believe shoving qualifies.

Everyone has his own truth about poker.. I don't like to be outdrawn.Period. I don't care about how I can make some more cents by gambling whether villain will hit his draw or not...

Draws will almost never call a shove here (maybe JXd or TXd ?? with gutshot and FD).

2 pair hands will call more than 60% of the time (maybe even more) and I will win a huge pot which I think is better than numerous thin value bets in similar situations and gambling if the draw hits or not.
 
kidkvno1

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Your AK should of been a 5X raise to 0.30, maybe + 1 more coz you where in the BB.
2nd hand 4X to 5X the BB, if you have any callers watch out, someone has a set.
 
Stu_Ungar

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The only reason we should shove the turn is if we specifically expect a flush draw, or a hand worse than top two pair, to call a shove. Wanting to pick up the pot here by shoving is a mistake, the pot isn't big enough to justify this, you want draws to continue at incorrect odds - so you want to make the biggest bet you can that you expect will be called by worse hands/draws - I don't believe shoving qualifies.


The stack size is such that if the flop bet is called then we are pot committed.

So what's the point in not shoving? You bet, he calls would you fold the turn for less than 1/2 pot bet?
 
slycbnew

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Everyone has his own truth about poker.. I don't like to be outdrawn.Period. I don't care about how I can make some more cents by gambling whether villain will hit his draw or not...

Draws will almost never call a shove here (maybe JXd or TXd ?? with gutshot and FD).

2 pair hands will call more than 60% of the time (maybe even more) and I will win a huge pot which I think is better than numerous thin value bets in similar situations and gambling if the draw hits or not.

Ok, to each his own. Just to illustrate how much money you're leaving on the table, though - a flush draw is 20% to hit w one card left. Let's say we have a rigged coin that flips 20% of the time tails, 80% of the time heads. You call heads and make a $10 even money bet that it'll come up heads - do you want me to call or not? Create a pot by forcing antes or something before we flip the coin - same bet, same odds, now do you want me to call or not? If you know that I'll call $100 in this situation (he forced ante totals $5) but not $200, do you bet $100 or $200?
 
slycbnew

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The stack size is such that if the flop bet is called then we are pot committed.

So what's the point in not shoving? You bet, he calls would you fold the turn for less than 1/2 pot bet?

I'm not questioning whether we're committed, it's whether he's committed. If he calls the shove w a fd/worse hand, then I agree - if he folds a fd/worse hand to a shove but calls 2/3psb, then I think the 2/3psb is better.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I'm not questioning whether we're committed, it's whether he's committed. If he calls the shove w a fd/worse hand, then I agree - if he folds a fd/worse hand to a shove but calls 2/3psb, then I think the 2/3psb is better.

If he holds a FD, you give him one incorrect call (on the flop) and then an instant call on the Turn.

Playing the hand like this is just wrong. You are leaving this small pointless amount of money which has to then go in on the turn.
 
slycbnew

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If he holds a FD, you give him one incorrect call (on the flop) and then an instant call on the Turn.

Playing the hand like this is just wrong. You are leaving this small pointless amount of money which has to then go in on the turn.

2/3psb on the turn doesn't give him odds to call - it's terrible for him to call w a fd there. I'm not following you.
 
blueskies

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Thanks for all the inputs. Another question here:

(I forgot to save hand history, can't find it now so can't convert)

But I had AKos on the button (6 handed table). MP raises 4xBB (he's loose aggressive preflop according to PTR.com stats). I reraise him to 3x his raise (to 60c at 5c table). He calls. I am thinking Ax or KQ type of hand here.

Flop is K23 with two spades. I lead out with a 4/5 pot size bet. He sits a while and flat calls. The turn is 8d. What should I do on the turn?

About half of my stack is already commited at this point.

(I shoved. He had KK)

I am wondering if there's anyway I can avoid losing my entire stack in this situation. Somewhat similar situation to my first hand posted above.
 
Stu_Ungar

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2/3psb on the turn doesn't give him odds to call - it's terrible for him to call w a fd there. I'm not following you.


The problem with playing a hand in such a way that you have about a half pot bet left on the river is this.

You end up in one of the following 2 situations.

1. You become a calling station. You figure that even when the card you were afraid of comes in, you still have to call because you are getting a great price on your bluff catchers.

2. You become super blufable. An obvious scar card comes in and you fold because you don't want to pay people off like in situation number 1. Now for a half pot bet people can make you fold very easily.

Neither situation is good. Both will make you exploitable.

Therefore you should never play a pot in a way that leaves you with less than a pot bet behind.

This means that the cost of bluffing you goes up and because the money is more significant you can get away from a hand because you feel your opponent will bluff less because the cost is higher, and you are getting a less favourable price on calling his bluffs.

The way you are suggesting means that you dont get the opponents money in when he is drawing and you have no idea what to do when the scare card comes in.
 
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Ok, to each his own. Just to illustrate how much money you're leaving on the table, though - a flush draw is 20% to hit w one card left. Let's say we have a rigged coin that flips 20% of the time tails, 80% of the time heads. You call heads and make a $10 even money bet that it'll come up heads - do you want me to call or not? Create a pot by forcing antes or something before we flip the coin - same bet, same odds, now do you want me to call or not? If you know that I'll call $100 in this situation (he forced ante totals $5) but not $200, do you bet $100 or $200?

Yes, you are right, but we are not flipping a rigged coin. We are playing poker!

There are many people who will go all-in when they hit their worse 2 pair hand on the river and we are forced to fold (A7 or someone "trapping" us with A6 can also go all-in on the river). Sometimes people will bluff when 3rd diamond comes. I am not giving them a chance to take my pot away.

Moving all-in in such spot gives me the option to bluff all-in another pot. People think I always bluff when I am playing live and I often get called in identical spots by top pair weak kicker hands...

I have played regularly poker for a year and I played just like you are suggesting with thin value bets and thinking only about odds. Guess what ? I was break-even player and rarely up or down. I tilted away my online bankroll and then when started building it up - I discovered how useful are overbets. Have you watched high stakes online action ? How often do you see massive overbets ?? Do you think they are bad players and leaving money on the table ?
 
slycbnew

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The problem with playing a hand in such a way that you have about a half pot bet left on the river is this.

You end up in one of the following 2 situations.

1. You become a calling station. You figure that even when the card you were afraid of comes in, you still have to call because you are getting a great price on your bluff catchers.

2. You become super blufable. An obvious scar card comes in and you fold because you don't want to pay people off like in situation number 1. Now for a half pot bet people can make you fold very easily.

Obviously we can't be both, you're giving an either/or. W such a small amount behind, obv we're a calling station and are completely un-bluffable.

Neither situation is good. Both will make you exploitable.

Hmm, I don't think I agree w this. Assuming he's on a fd, we got the vast majority of the money in as a favorite before the river, and on the turn we got it in as an overwhelming 80% favorite - the small amount left behind we end up losing is inconsequential relative to the amount we win (sklansky bucks) as the 80% favorite.

Therefore you should never play a pot in a way that leaves you with less than a pot bet behind.

If doing so causes Villain to make an enormous mistake, then I don't nec agree.

This means that the cost of bluffing you goes up and because the money is more significant you can get away from a hand because you feel your opponent will bluff less because the cost is higher, and you are getting a less favourable price on calling his bluffs.

The way you are suggesting means that you dont get the opponents money in when he is drawing

If you think this is what I'm trying to accomplish, we're talking past each other, I'm trying to get as MUCH money in as possible when he's drawing. If Villain will call the turn shove w a fd, by all means shove. My point is that if he won't call a shove w a fd, but will call a smaller bet that gives him incorrect odds to draw, we should make that bet. I understand your point that we're pot committed when we do this, and that the river plays itself out - but I'm ok w that so long as Villain makes the very large mistake on the turn, it's a small cost to Hero on the river (less than 1/2psb as you point out) relative to the cost of the mistake Villain makes on the turn.

and you have no idea what to do when the scare card comes in. Again, if there's so little left behind, there are no scare cards.
..
 
Stu_Ungar

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Look your stratagy contradict itself.

You say that we become a calling station as we wont fold for such a small amount of money.


Then you say we are trying to get him to put as much money in bad whilst drawing.

Yet the result is that we pay him off every-time he hits, thus reducing the amount of money he puts in bad (because he is now getting some added implied odds)

It just makes no sense to have this small amount of money hanging around after the turn that we are going to put in anyway.
 
slycbnew

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Have you watched high stakes online action ? How often do you see massive overbets ?? Do you think they are bad players and leaving money on the table ?

High stakes play involves balancing ranges, where those overbets are made w very strong hands, complete air, and drawing hands. Villains know this, so they are playing back w ranges that compete well w the overbet ranges. When an overbet means anything from "I've got the nuts" to "I've got air, but I think you have air and your air isn't good enough to play back at me", the game plays differently - and the overbet on this hand may be calculated to have very poor equity/lose this time so Hero can make the same play on a later hand that will win.

This doesn't occur as much at microstakes - most play at microstakes is face up, so an overbet means "very strong hand" the vast majority of the time. Playing back at an overbet in microstakes w a hand that doesn't compete well w that range is not profitable, and most players intuitively understand that, so the majority of players aren't going to call a turn shove w a flush draw.

Overbetting in this spot is an outstanding play if you have a read that the player will make an incorrect play - if you have that read and believe he'll call w worse, then I completely agree that it's the correct play.

Note that I'm not suggesting the play in and of itself is a problem, only that making that play specifically to shut draws out is not optimal.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Note that I'm not suggesting the play in and of itself is a problem, only that making that play specifically to shut draws out is not optimal.

except when you leave an awkward amount of cash that means you will either pay them off when they hit (thus giving them better implied odds on the turn)

or that you will fold should the draw come in to this small bet which means you are super blufable.
 
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