set mining Conditions

There's 1 thing I never really figured out, and that is Set mining. I have Question (That require your expertise on it).

My question are as follows

1) What are the right conditions one should try to set mine?

2) From what position should 1 try to set mine from? UTG, Middle, Late (Is most optimal, I understand that much, lol)

3) How low should the blinds be in order to make set mining most optimal, or how high should set mining be (So more or less should we be willing to set mine when blinds reach 2500-5k)? So what's the maximum blind levels that 1 would need to limp in for to make set mining most optimal?

I noticed lately that Set mining is actually killing me because I'm calling E.P, M.P, L.P all for trying to set mine, and thus when I miss I throw my hand away but this in fact is actually hurting my precious chips...

So plz help me deal with this bad habit, and make it more profitable for me, and the rest that are curious about this question

Its best to set mine from LP when there are a few limpers in the pot already. You should never open limp, especially from EP. The only time it is alright is when you are at a very aggressive table and you are slow playing A's or K's. In a tournament I wouldn't set mine unless you have at least 25-30 BB. Maybe with 20 BB if you are getting great odds. Any less than that and you are just putting in too much of your stack. From MP I wouldn't play any pair under 7's, and even that is questionable unless you are at a really passive table. You should be raising with these to give yourself multiple ways to win, again, unless there are already multiple limpers.

thunder1276 said:

Its best to set mine from LP when there are a few limpers in the pot already.

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Disagree.

IMO, in order of importance:

1) Deep stacks. The loosest rule I've seen is 12:1 (the "1" being the original raise size). I prefer more like 20:1 myself.
2) Raiser has a tight range.
3) Raiser isn't great at folding post flop.
4) We have position.

Note, this works for all implied odds situations (pre-flop and post flop).

You're a tourney guy so you can probably only profitably set mine very early in a tournament.

+ You need to learn that low/mid pairs have more value than pure set value, way to many players on this site play set or fold.

tenbob said:

+ You need to learn that low/mid pairs have more value than pure set value, way to many players on this site play set or fold.

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This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

tenbob said:

+ You need to learn that low/mid pairs have more value than pure set value, way to many players on this site play set or fold.

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Guilty.

tenbob said:

+ You need to learn that low/mid pairs have more value than pure set value, way to many players on this site play set or fold.

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Elaborate on that, because:

1) I think its a good point.
2) Its a very general statement that, if taken the wrong way, could lead to some super -EV plays.

He assume means that a pair post flop is often the best hand (Ace/X only hits the flop a third of the time).
Even if it isn't the best hand, the texture of the flop can get people to fold better pairs when you c-bet or re-raise.

Thx all for the In valuable input...So to set this Properly for all...

1) I would need at least 12:1 or greater to set mine?
2) We both need Equal stakes (Meaning we both need to be deep)?
3) Only in Late position or Middle Position, but never open limp with middle pairs?

If I missed anything else plz tell me

naruto_miu said:

Thx all for the In valuable input...So to set this Properly for all...

1) I would need at least 12:1 or greater to set mine?

If I missed anything else plz tell me

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I think you misread this. I believe he meant at least 12 to 1 stack size with the 1 being the original raise vs. single opponent. And he said that was on the loose end. Tight would be 20 to 1.

So the way I see it is TAG that rarely folds postflop raises up to 4 BB's. This means you need his stack to be 12x this(and your stack too). This would make it a loose call if effective stacks were 48BB's deep. Playing on the tighter side call if 80BB deep.

Hope I got this right. I'm an SNG junkie and in no way consider myself a cash game player, but it sounds right too me.

SavagePenguin said:

Even if it isn't the best hand, the texture of the flop can get people to fold better pairs when you c-bet or re-raise.

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So we're planning to have a ton of implied odds when we hit, and fold equity when we miss. Do you see why these two post flop plans are completely opposite of each other? bluffing people with strong ranges is generally a bad idea, and if they don't have a strong range, then we shouldn't call to set mine.

WVHillbilly said:

You're a tourney guy so you can probably only profitably set mine very early in a tournament.

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I'm very guilty of this right here, I always actually have just had this type of thinking, Set mine only Early Low Blind levels, and then Once blinds reach that 250/500 area, Forget about Set Mining, and Start making bluffs with Small-Mid pairs

tenbob said:

+ You need to learn that low/mid pairs have more value than pure set value, way to many players on this site play set or fold.

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Once again, Guilty of this, and truth is I still don't quite really understand, Why I make certain plays, with say 22-88 knowing I'm crushed if Villain calls, but I also understand (Or at-least believe I understand your Comment)...Are you implying or trying to imply to put Villain on a range, and if you really believe your Read is Correct to call with it...So assuming that a TAG/LAG player raised with W/E in M.P and you called on the Button 77 And board came 10/J/2, as long as the AKQ89 don't hit on the turn/River, and as long as Bet Sizes don't increase to call down Lightly with it? Or are you Implying to take the More Aggressive stance with it, and to Play it as so, as if you had a set, by Double Floating Figuring your Opponent wont call you with just a pair, Figuring that he's Good enough to Fold TPTK? May You plz Define yourself more to this Lamen

naruto_miu said:

Thx all for the In valuable input...So to set this Properly for all...

By the way all Meant Valuable Input, not In Valuable Input...

1) I would need at least 12:1 or greater to set mine?
2) We both need Equal stakes (Meaning we both need to be deep)?
3) Only in Late position or Middle Position, but never open limp with middle pairs?

If I missed anything else plz tell me

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DetroitJimmy said:

I think you misread this. I believe he meant at least 12 to 1 stack size with the 1 being the original raise vs. single opponent. And he said that was on the loose end. Tight would be 20 to 1.

So the way I see it is TAG that rarely folds postflop raises up to 4 BB's. This means you need his stack to be 12x this(and your stack too). This would make it a loose call if effective stacks were 48BB's deep. Playing on the tighter side call if 80BB deep.

Hope I got this right. I'm an SNG junkie and in no way consider myself a cash game player, but it sounds right too me.

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The more I keep Rereading this, The better I'm starting to understand it

Once again all

Thx for everything

Be careful set mining can go very wrong...

pedroman7 said:

Be careful set mining can go very wrong...

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lol, that is Too Funny

God I'd hate to be in that situation

Dang,

I just HATE when that happens

pedroman7 said:

Be careful set mining can go very wrong...

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wow that is terrible haha...

but yea i definitely agree with what everyone's said here so far...set mining is only profitable and excusable when you have ur confident ur opponent holds a certain range of hands...then it depends on how comfortable you are with the post flop play, no matter what the texture of the board may be...if you feel like you'd b afraid of any over card then you should just get out of the way preflop and wait for a better spot...if you're confident that you can outplay ur opponent and get him to fold hands like TPTK or represent a set to whatever he may have, then by all means go for it...but basically the only time to setmine is when you'd b comfortable playing the hand even if/when you miss the flop

Set mining can result in you that is stepping on the mine.

I had 44 and limped. Flop comes TT4. Pretty good huh?

Yes... except BB had T4. If I raised, he would probably have folded preflop.

blueskies said:

Set mining can result in you that is stepping on the mine.

I had 44 and limped. Flop comes TT4. Pretty good huh?

Yes... except BB had T4. If I raised, he would probably have folded preflop.

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What does some stupid bb have to do with anything?

You can basically just open fold small pairs in tournaments after the first few levels and your results will probably be a lot better. I mean, if some situation arises where 5 people limp and you're in the SB with 22, by all means throw the chip in there but for the most part you are folding or using them as resteal hands vs. late-position opens.

The difference on how you set mine, or play pp's difers greatly between ring , and tournies. I'm a tourney guy, so take it for what it's worth.

There is a point in tourneys, a few orbits in, when the insanity has calmed, and you probably can limp pp's early position, a time or 2 per hour maybe. In order to pull this off tho you want to feel confident that the table has calmed, and that u don't fall in love with that pp.

Of course better position is well, better, and if it is one of those sessions where the cards are flowing well, then don't bother with the babies. But flowing cards don't happen often, so a cautious approach which includes fit or fold, but is not exclusively fit or fold, works for me.

Bottom line for me is I want to believe I understand the table before I get too loose about babies.

Likewise, there are times with a hand like TT or JJ where even with position, the action dictates they aren't worth the price to play.

c9h13no3 said:

Disagree.

IMO, in order of importance:

1) Deep stacks. The loosest rule I've seen is 12:1 (the "1" being the original raise size). I prefer more like 20:1 myself.
2) Raiser has a tight range.
3) Raiser isn't great at folding post flop.
4) We have position.

Note, this works for all implied odds situations (pre-flop and post flop).

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Wow I set mine way too much Seems like these conditioned wouldn't be met very often...

I don't feel set mining is a very good strategy after the first hour of a tourney unless the table is very tight.

Some more detail on the 12:1 discussion:

This number needs to be a general idea of what you're capable of winning on a consistent basis. To properly evaluate this we need to look at the stack sizes of everyone still remaining in the hand (to make sure they're mostly deep enough), we need to ask ourselves if the players still remaining are the type of players who will pay us (either so tight that they wouldn't get involved without a strong enough hand that they'll pay, or loose enough that they'll pay with weak hands), and we need to look at the likelihood that someone behind us will raise too large for us to properly set mine.

Pretty sure every english teacher I've ever had would want to kick my arse for that last sentence.

Set-mining is so lame. I quad-mine, son.

/GOML