Serious Questions here.

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Steve_StudAA

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OK so forget all the rigged talk I do.

What am I missing about this online game.

.50 SnG 1 table.

I have AK suited UTG1 and raise to 4 BB
4 callers
Flop 99A Rainbow
Only cards I fear is 9 AA at this point.
I go all in, I'm big stack, it's about 2/3 risk of my stack.

Only thing I have shown the table in previous hands have been big, QQ with q flop, and another flopped set of 4. Other than that, I have folded every other hand.

I get 2 callers, for all their stacks, I'm big stack.

Callers A5 and 44.

4 hits the river.

Questions. Who makes that flop call? What could I have done differently? Where is my mistake? I was thinking if I get called with what I feared, so be it, that's poker, I can easily live with that. But I wanted this hand done right here and now, not about to give anyone another running straight, or a 2 more chances to hit their set.

Hero is multi-tabling the same SnG, has played 100% of hands and called to them all to river and is about 75% win rate. Hero is not aggressive, no PFR, No first in betting, just calls everything every street, every bet. This was not the first hand either where all his chips were in the middle either. I crippled him early with QQ to his AQ all in. He had a slightly larger stack then. I'm rather surprised the A did not hit TBH, but that aside. He also had rivered a couple other times to stay alive.

Am I to aggressive with these big hands to early in the streets?

I'm thinking if I check the flop, the A5 would of plowed in all his chips I'm sure, difference being I'm calling the allin, rather than being the person putting them all in, maybe the 4 does not crack if I'm calling rather than betting.

In all seriousness, is there any validity to my thinking that I could change the outcome of the river card with my actions before?

This scenario plays out several times a day for me essentially very similar, different cards, but I always get my chips in that type of situation, and a 2 outer hits or a runner runner flush, or running straight. My 35 outs to someone else's 2-14 outs might be running around 20% for me. This is what is getting me thinking out loud here that a far more passive post flop approach is required in my game. More calling and less raising. Roles reversed though, I would of absolutely folded the 44 100% of the time PF. But the passive post flop I'm giving away an opportunity for someone to hit their draw. Wits end here, just struggling to find an answer. Passive also gives an opportunity for that board to get really scary and with my previous experience I could be easily be chased off the best hand. Maybe I'm just toast and tiddlywinks is more my speed. If I keep running at these percentages, I don't see much alternative but to give it up. It does not bother me nearly as much when I may KK and Hero has AA unless it's like the 3rd time within 2 hours that day, that can bother me. Yesterday I was run out of from a high spot in a tournament with 6 in a row very low percentage hits by the hero's. I'm getting very gun shy at the moment.
 
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mad_chils139

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You played it well, 44 is not suppose to be calling in that spot unless he feels your bluff shoving with like KQ or something is which very unlikely.. He got lucky and hit a 2 outer on you which happens. You played it +EV so dont think you could have done something different because you played it well.
Mad_chils139 :cool:
 
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Marx

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i think a couple things from reading your description ... you are playing pretty tight if the only hands shown are flopped sets .. on the other end you are vastly overplaying your hand in terms of bet sizing ... you raise to 4x and shove the flop for 2/3 of your stack ... you were very lucky to get even one caller let alone two .... you should want action there honestly but pot control is important ... it does not have to be all or nothing ... it seems to me you are creating your own luck by playing such a high variance style ... i understand being scared of being outdrawn esp with only a one pair hand but that's no reason to shove there , it's not going to stop callers who either don't care or don't know any better , it's not going to stop the river either ... also you are putting a ridiculous amount of pressure on your hand ... you are creating huge pots when that's not needed , .. esp as chip leader ... have patience , play the hand , make a bet , see where you are and go from there .. gl
 
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Mauno

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You had reason to play as you did. A5 and 44 should have been folded in my oppinion.
If you maybe noticed style of these players... if they look to be ready to go all in in any situation then maybe would been better to bet smaller to see next card.
 
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ph_il

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That's a really weird shove on that board with 4 players behind you. You're either way ahead/way behind in the spot.

If you're way ahead, you get weaker hands to fold that'll probably pay you off. You can get weaker Ax hands to call of your bet and mid pair hands like 88 or 1010 might want to peel off a turn. By jamming here and getting them to fold, you pick up a decent pot, but you also lose a lot of value.

Betting out will have the same results as shoving if no one has anything. But if you do have the best hand, then you want some weaker hands to stick around because you have great showdown value.

To look at it another way, if everyone had folded to your shove, you win the pot of 20BBs, but you lose value on the weaker hands that would've probably called your bet(s). If you had bet and only A5 called you down to river, you could've easily picked up another 20+ BBs off of that player, giving you a 40+ BB pot instead of just 20. If I have a chance to stack off an opponent that has a weaker hand, I'm going to try. Not let them off easily.

However, if someone does have a 9, then you're putting yourself in a really bad spot by jamming here and getting you money in bad. Your attitude of 'if they have it, they have it' is wrong and you really don't need to put yourself in this kind of spot.

With 4 players behind you, there are a lot of 9x hands out there. Ignoring random 9x hands, we can expect hands like 89s, 910s, J9-A9s, A9o, maybe even 79s. Also possible hands a player might see a flop with but not necessarily 3bet preflop with.

In the end, you did get your money in good and I think you were really lucky to get called of by 2 hands, and unlucky that you lost the pot in the end. As far as 'what type of player calls the flop shove with 44', the answer is simple: bad players; players you want in pots with you.
 
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nothing to do here but be thankful that the games are still good, just a unlucky hand
 
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Seriously reply
Jam flop with your AK on AA9 board is the max ev here.

this time you ask some one call you 44 and rivered 4.

why not think about if river no 4 you trippled?

____________

Seriously to say
the reason of winning is because
a lot weaker players call down like this

I think I did not see anything need to be changed here.

jam and waiting and accepting bad or good.
 
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ph_il

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Seriously reply
Jam flop with your AK on AA9 board is the max ev here.

this time you ask some one call you 44 and rivered 4.

why not think about if river no 4 you trippled?

____________

Seriously to say
the reason of winning is because
a lot weaker players call down like this

I think I did not see anything need to be changed here.

jam and waiting and accepting bad or good.
The flop was A99 w/ 4 players to act behind.

If it was AA9, then I'm all for open shoving.
 
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karl coakley

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IDK, I don't like the hand.

I think you really overplayed your hand. You certainly didn't have the best hand or much of a draw, not sure why you would shove, 9x has you crushed, that is a LOT of hands. While I think the villains played horribly, that actually is what you want and should expect at .50.

I have always thought shoving is a hole in a lot of people's game. A shove usually means you are weak and protecting something. I think you made it easy for 44 to beat you. If you had been aggressive and bet the flop and then the turn, you very well may have gotten a fold.

Shoving, you lose on ways to win the pot (a fold) as well as value.

Unless you have the nuts (which you didn't) or are drawing to the nuts (which you weren't) it wouldn't even cross my mind to shove all my chips in and hope multi handed someone doesn't have a 9.
 
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The flop was A99 w/ 4 players to act behind.

If it was AA9, then I'm all for open shoving.

I think it is still a +EV shove

but as described did not expect player with 44 would fold to any bet.

so this hand must go to showdown and AK cracked on river

but in the long run, you win more than you get cracked.

i checked the board texture book

yes, I caculated it before it is a +EV shoving , EV= 20% of the pot if you shoving AK here. if 4 way or + player at this board

add: i noticed it is a SNG, so in general does not expect to be deep stake game, and with 5 players in the pot, the pot here is big enough for AK to push for 20% pot equity, I think push is good here, so if get cracked then it is just a unlucky day, especially as described.
 
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Steve_StudAA

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The flop was A99 w/ 4 players to act behind.

If it was AA9, then I'm all for open shoving.

I hear you. But here is the problem I have. Maybe to much book learning.

You know, the EV stuff, position, hand ranges etc. Its a 4 way pot, I'm trying to get hands like 44 to fold here. Only hands that should be calling here are 9 and A.

It would be delusional not to think with 4 in on a 4 bb pre-flop call your chips are not all in at some point this hand.

I can see a mistake here all in Preflop, hands like 44 gamble that all the time.

But 44 calling a 2 outer with 2 cards left to come. Even a total mentally challenged individual knows enough to fold that hand. Granted maybe not enough to fold it PF, but after the flop, who calls that hand?

There is no draws to come, just 2 outs. If I had not seen this occurring with alarming frequency, put it down to a cooler and move on. I even see this similar play after the turn has dropped.

I see this sh-it all the time, and it pays them a ton. It pays them a ton. Go into any micro MTT. Watch the tables of the chip leaders. 10, 15 and 20X their opening stack within 3 or 4 minutes. But watch their play, it's not always just all in PF, often it's a made hand on the turn and river. The frequency of such is beyond comprehension. Yeah, I can do the math. Ya know, 2 outs, 2 cards to come. Or the river completing their gut shot. 4 cards, 2 to come, often 1 to come.

It does not matter if I'm on PS, Bwin, PP, 888. Same happens all the time, several times within minutes of each other. Over and over, repeated now hundreds and hundreds of times.

It really comes down to for me, Who calls with that hand? Maybe I'm over analyzing, maybe I'm not. But even if I was playing at the kitchen table with a 4 year old, they would have enough mental capacity to know that hand was no good now and must be folded.

So, who calls that hand?
 
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karl coakley

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It really comes down to for me, Who calls with that hand? Maybe I'm over analyzing, maybe I'm not. But even if I was playing at the kitchen table with a 4 year old, they would have enough mental capacity to know that hand was no good now and must be folded.

So, who calls that hand?

Players that play in a 50 cent game thinking they can become a big stack and win the SnG. Bad players that don't understand how to play poker like to shove and play bingo with the hope of getting lucky, and they do.

Move to $10.00 SnG and you will get your fold, but the other call will be a 9x. Not sure which you prefer.

This is simply the wrong play and a loser, if you don't see that, you are going to get the same result over and over.

I see lots of trash online just like you posted. I have my big pairs out flopped every day also, yet I do maintain a profit, on 4 different sites I play on everyday.

You really need to rework your whole thinking and adjust your play.
 
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Steve_StudAA

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I hear ya, but it was a little more than hope there was no 9. If there was a 9, I lose fair and square. I make that call all the time, does he have the K, does he not. Then I think, if he had the K, would he have done this or that. Did he do that or this, I then make a judgement call. I made a judgement call I was not facing any 9's. I was right.

I knew from the PF action I was facing no big pairs. I was holding 1 blocker to the one big pair, I could discount that and did and was right.

What I was most afraid of was A9. That was entirely possible. However, what I needed off the hand was the pocket pairs. There were no draws. Slow playing it does zero except make it cheap for someone to hit. I see that rightly or wrongly as a mistake. All in, the call I get is A anything which I had dominated. A anything was entirely possible given the PF action. And again I was right, I did get a call from the A5.

But again, even a retard would not call with 44 there.

But again, I'm not interested in a multi-way showdown in that position, and I'm out of position as well. I'm quite happy to throw all my chips in the middle with 1 other A something and see what happens. At least they would of not been calling air, had reason to believe they might have the best hand.

I like my call there, would do it again 6 ways to Sunday. My question was who makes that call in that position with those cards.

And to take it a little further, why are they so successful?

Hero was sitting in 6 other .50 SnG and doing very well in them all.

This is no random casual player spending his hard earned freeroll dough.

So again, who makes that call?
 
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