Room for bluffs in the grind?

kurthead · May 4, 2012

I usually can get a pretty good read on people and know when to make a stab at the pot. I typically have to work a small roll and after some bad luck that causes a downward spin I burn through it. About 20-30$ starting at the most.
I wonder that even at .02-.05$ tables while trying to build my roll, should I bluff at all? I mean of course there are very obvious spots where you can take down the pot for cheap, and those are beside the point. Also the contiuation bet is beside the point. Just if I put the other guy on a weak hand. Or weak bets should I bluff? Usually I know when to do it. But every so often, it kills me. It screws me up pretty bad in very few hands. With this kind of grind work ahead, should I just wait for made or nut hands and wait for people to play into me or screw up and just catch the money? No bluffs? Or is this playing Tight-Passive. Sometimes while playing aggressive I get a little too loose. While playing really tight I get too passive. I'm not sure if I've been able to mix the two.
So, if I do not bluff AT ALL, except for very obvious ones, would that be too much like playing like a rock?

Poker_play · May 4, 2012

Play like a rock. ABC poker. bluffing is --EV on these stakes, period.

fletchdad · May 4, 2012

I get coached by a guy who once said "People are strangely honest about what they have (in the micros). Most of them will tell you with their bets" SO you have to make moves and such, but just keep away from the air moves. If you have a decent hand with some draws, you can use those to make your moves cause you will still have equity if called. You cant only play your strong hands cause even in the micros, some players will notice. But if you make sure situations are ok, you can still make semi bluffs.

I see it like this - situational of course.

Dont bluff 2+ players.

Dont 4 bet semi-bluff unless you have great draws and even then only vs a player where you believe FE is there.

Try to have info on players before you try moves on them. If you put a station on a weak hand, he will still be a station.

Having said all that, most of your bets should be for value, that really is where the money is at the micros.

kurthead · May 4, 2012

What is "FE" and what is "EV?"

And very good advice thank you both.

fletchdad · May 4, 2012

FE = fold equity

EV = expected value. So "+" ev is positive and "-" ev is negative.

FE is when you make a bet or raise vs a guy who you think has a hand, but may fold to your bet. You also need good draws so if he calls you are not in terrible shape. But the FE makes the move +ev (meaning positive expected value, meaning in the long term you believe this move will make you money) since you can maybe win right now when he folds and still have outs if he calls.

Johniblayze1 · May 6, 2012

I'm playing hu hypers right now, not cash so my advice may not be so good.

You always are playing against your opp style and what your opp range is. In the micros ppl will tell you what they have with the bets, bet sizing & timing. Does this mean you can't or shouldn't bluff? Absolutely not. C-bet like crazy until they give you a reason not to. If they start calling, floating or c/ring well then tone it back some with your air. I play some villains that on scary boards fold everytime I cbet. 3 flush & paired boards are 2 great ones to cbet against certain opps. Against others they know you don't have a hand and will c/r bluff you out of your seat. So much of poker is opp dependent. Some villains like to stick out a little 50 chip puss bet when they have air or a weak holding hoping you don't raise. Other tricky players will use this bet to induce you into raising when they've got the nutz. Against 1 villain, I'm reading him as saying I'm really weak right now and will prolly fold if you raise & if I don't fold on this street I'll prolly fold on the turn and definitely by the river. Against the other I'm reading him as saying come on buddy take the bait. You know you wanna raise this little puss bet. Which I almost always do & sometimes the tricky sobs suck me into giving them action.

Anyways, I'm gonna get back to the tables. I love to bluff and find tons of spots for it while playing any stake of poker. If you give it a try I think you will be able to happily bluff many fishes. Its a great feeling to get away with bluffing, makes poker really fun. If you've taken nothing from this rant here is something to remember, fish fold. If you don't bet they can't fold.

gl & run good

TheGenera1 · May 6, 2012

I tried an experiment yesterday. I tried to bluff a fish off of bottom pair by raising the flop, betting the turn and shoving the river. He still called with his bottom pair and so I became the fish my self. Doesn't work guys, don't bluff the micros !

CaptainKout · May 7, 2012

The most profitable thing I've found at micros, is that if they call a flop bet and a turn bet you can almost always shove the river and get called no matter the stack size. They want to see the showdown so bad and so often they'll commit to seeing a showdown with almost any piece of the board especially if its a high middle pair. Like if they pair a jack on a board like KJ4 they will probably take it to showdown so your top pair good kicker might be worth a whole stack if your comfortable taking it there.

the way i see it, micro fish bet their monsters too small and call huge bets despite weak hands. ABC should be +EV just by changing your bet sizing to fit the strength of your hand.

Alas, I'm lack the self control to benefit from this realization. Bluffing off my bankroll is my biggest problem too. Some boards are just begging to be bet but we need to get over it. They're only playing their hand with no attention to what you could have.

Note on cbetting: I experimented with dif sizes. Youre pretty much just flushing out small pocket pairs and complete air. These will fold to 1/2 pot bets so don't bother making it bigger than it needs to be.

kurthead · May 7, 2012

Johniblayze1 said:
I'm playing hu hypers right now, not cash so my advice may not be so good.

You always are playing against your opp style and what your opp range is. In the micros ppl will tell you what they have with the bets, bet sizing & timing. Does this mean you can't or shouldn't bluff? Absolutely not. C-bet like crazy until they give you a reason not to. If they start calling, floating or c/ring well then tone it back some with your air. I play some villains that on scary boards fold everytime I cbet. 3 flush & paired boards are 2 great ones to cbet against certain opps. Against others they know you don't have a hand and will c/r bluff you out of your seat. So much of poker is opp dependent. Some villains like to stick out a little 50 chip puss bet when they have air or a weak holding hoping you don't raise. Other tricky players will use this bet to induce you into raising when they've got the nutz. Against 1 villain, I'm reading him as saying I'm really weak right now and will prolly fold if you raise & if I don't fold on this street I'll prolly fold on the turn and definitely by the river. Against the other I'm reading him as saying come on buddy take the bait. You know you wanna raise this little puss bet. Which I almost always do & sometimes the tricky sobs suck me into giving them action.

Anyways, I'm gonna get back to the tables. I love to bluff and find tons of spots for it while playing any stake of poker. If you give it a try I think you will be able to happily bluff many fishes. Its a great feeling to get away with bluffing, makes poker really fun. If you've taken nothing from this rant here is something to remember, fish fold. If you don't bet they can't fold.

gl & run good

I liked your advice. And I DO bluff, quite a bit. I love it too. But, that's why I was asking if I should be. Because my biggest hits usually are a bad timed bluff. Even after some awesome bluffs. In micros though, it often is very hard to bluff because people will call you along with bottom pair. The beauty of that though, is I can change my play with those guys, and make the most money off of them playing tight, and value betting. Cuz once you hit the nuts and they got second or top pair they'll bluff hard or call anything. That's my usual strategy. And I do find weaker guys to bluff. My biggest problem int he micros before recently is that I was playing way too tight and passive, because I was always worried about losing my BR and don't have a credit card to load more. But, now that I've gotten really aggressive while staying tight and timing it, it's worked out amazing. Cuz when I hit those nut hands playing so tight I hardly got any action. Get caught bluffing a couple times and you load up on the big hands. It's hard to mix play up but I'm getting the hang of it.

TheGenera1 · May 7, 2012

What happens when you are card dead? which is most of the time. How do you implement your strategy then? You bluff off half your stack to loosen up your opponents, then by the time you actually have a hand it's Tuesday next week and they have moved on from poker. Or just left the table

CaptainKout · May 7, 2012

When card dead, I steal more from btn and co with suited connectors/one gappers. Keeps me interested but gotta be extra careful.

TheGenera1 · May 7, 2012

Fair enough

PotluckXXI · May 7, 2012

Bluffing in the micros is tricky, you have to KNOW your opponent will fold and the only way to do that is observe a lot of his hands. Bluffing really is not a terribly good idea in the micro-stakes unless you don't mind getting caught on a smallish pot so your villains can SEE that you will bluff and you intend to tighten up. Blind stealing is good if you don't have a calling station left to act behind you (always have them on your right) and steal from nits constantly (when they are on your left).

Ezekiel162 · May 7, 2012

TheGenera1 said:
I tried an experiment yesterday. I tried to bluff a fish off of bottom pair by raising the flop, betting the turn and shoving the river. He still called with his bottom pair and so I became the fish my self. Doesn't work guys, don't bluff the micros !

Shoulda asked me B4 you tried this 'General... I would have have informed you as to how some of my past "failed" experiments ("frankenstein monsters" more like it...) turned out... lol... Like you said, keep bluffing, if any, to a minimum at the micros, unless you know your opponent's tendencies...

PotluckXXI said:
Bluffing in the micros is tricky, you have to KNOW your opponent will fold and the only way to do that is observe a lot of his hands. Bluffing really is not a terribly good idea in the micro-stakes unless you don't mind getting caught on a smallish pot so your villains can SEE that you will bluff and you intend to tighten up. Blind stealing is good if you don't have a calling station left to act behind you (always have them on your right) and steal from nits constantly (when they are on your left).

Good advice. Although, I always seem to to end up being card dead with the maniacs & calling stations sitting to my left and the nits sitting to my right...

TheGenera1 · May 7, 2012

Hahaha lets hear your past experiments

Ezekiel162 · May 7, 2012

Too numerous to name G' except to say now I save tha bluffing for the players that understand what the significance of a "significant raise" should normally mean instead of bluffing players whos poker GUIs obviously only comes equipped with 2 buttons... the call and re-raise buttons to be precise... I hear the advanced version GUIs actually come with a fold button and bet sliders... lol...

TheGenera1 · May 8, 2012

Hahahaha. Reminds me of last nights tournament I played in. Couple of fish to my left just would not ****ing fold. I literally had to wait 100 hands to finally knock them both out. Had AJs with the royal flush gutshot and 1 over. Decided Id had enough and was time to take a chance. Shoved and they both called one had a pair the other j4o. Took their stacks. Felt good.

Room for bluffs in the grind?

kurthead

Enthusiast

Poker_play

Rock Star

fletchdad

Jammin................

kurthead

Enthusiast

fletchdad

Jammin................

Johniblayze1

Rising Star

TheGenera1

Visionary

CaptainKout

Rock Star

kurthead

Enthusiast

TheGenera1

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CaptainKout

Rock Star

TheGenera1

Visionary

PotluckXXI

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Ezekiel162

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TheGenera1

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Ezekiel162

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TheGenera1

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