Ring: When to move up a level

I play pretty low stakes but have a pretty good track record. Just wondering bankroll aside (assume its a non-issue) when is the time to move up levels if you are beating your current level? A certain number of hands? A certain amount of profit? Certain percentage of winning sessions? All of the above? Any feedback appreciated as i am mostly a sit and go and MTT player.

Here's what I need:

1) A suitable bankroll. That means 20-30 buy-ins for my new level.
2) I have to be very comfortable at my current stakes. Scared money will lead to bad play, so I have to be ready to play for bigger pots and risk more money.
3) A sustained profit at my current stakes. I would say at least 10,000 hands, but others may want more. The higher the better, but I would want at least a 2 BB/100 win rate.
4) A good reason to think that I would be as profitable or more profitable at the higher level than my current stakes.

For me proper bankroll management is how I decide. I decide on a number of Buyins at which point I will allow myself to take a shot at the next level and if I fall back below that buyin level then I move back down until I build up enough to take another shot.

Well for me personally here's how I work it. My game is not built on a great winrate. I'm a multi table grinder. So my aim for moving up is slightly different. A big %age of my profit comes from FPP's so the higher I move up the better.

1. Bankroll to accommodate move up - usually 50 buy ins.

2. Running well.

3. Running better than 1PTBB/100 at the current level.

I think there is good advice here. I see 20 buy in, and I see 50 buy ins. I think in big blinds, and I like to have 3,000 of them It's a similar number usually.

Other ways I hold myself in check... if my play wobbles for more than 2 or three buyins at the higher limits I will drop back build back up, maybe even grab another 10% and go again.

It's not that I can't beat my new level... it's just that I am not gonna let myself go too far towards the mildest tilt as I adjust.

Even though I am a fairly aggressive player (I think) I am VERY conservative in regards to BRM. This is because I don't like to lose... odd huh?

So if I am sitting with you at a ring game, you can be assured that I WILL risk my buyin when the odds are there... because I can lose that much lots before I start to drool or vibrate.

cAPS

3000 BB? That seems like a huge amount. 3000 with nickel/dime poker is 300$ But what do I know, I haven't been playing with money for long.

Jagsti said:

3. Running better than 1PTBB/100 at the current level.

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pssh you fpp whore, you

All of my move-ups so far have been when I've had ~25-30 buyins and have been beating the previous levels for at least 2-3ptbb/100. I can't stress being overrolled enough though.

ChuckTs said:

I can't stress being overrolled enough though.

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QFT

Also note that the lower your winrate, the more of a bankroll you have to have, simply because the swings will tend to be worse (ie a 6 PTBB/100 winner's big downswing may be a break-even stretch where a 1 PTBB/100 winner's would be a -5 PTBB/100 stretch).

jamesdadeliverer said:

3000 BB? That seems like a huge amount. 3000 with nickel/dime poker is 300$ But what do I know, I haven't been playing with money for long.

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I see no reason folks can't go in earlier. For me 2k is aggressive and 3k is conservative, but I am conservative with my bankroll overall.

cAPS

of course the money is important,but something that helped me when i moved up is that i would take a consevative stab at a higher level from time to time,to get to feel comfortable at that level.(how the play is different from my level,bet sizes,that kind of thing)then after X amount of attempts i'll start to feel comfortable at that level before i move up for good.when taking your stab at the higher level always have a set amount you will LOSE before the attempt is over.don't try to re-gain your --what should be kept small while your learing the level---losses back at that higher level win them back at your more comfortable level before trying again.

Movin' on up--to the east-side (u know the rest)

I know U said BR a non-issue, but in reality, it's the entire issue! I've found Chris Fergusons' article on BR mngmnt (U can find it at FT) to be the best way to decide when it's the best time to move on up!:deal:

jedimoose said:

Just wondering bankroll aside (assume its a non-issue) when is the time to move up levels if you are beating your current level?

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How can bankroll *not* be an issue? If it's not an issue, play at any level you want because losing will have no negative consequences other than some frustration.

Now, skill-wise, to know you're good enough to sustain play at a higher level you should be beating your current level on a consistent basis. That means you have a lot of games at the this level (to reduce the influence of variance).

Lets say that you had a 20% ROI (return on investment) at the 9 player $5 S&G's over 500 games. For it to be a profitable move to move to similar $10 S&G's you only need a little more than a 10% ROI.

But just as Zach said, with a smaller ROI the swings are going to be greater and you will need a larger bankroll to help deal with a downswing.

Bankroll is #1 priority. And also how much the money means to you. I've set goals for when i will move up certain stakes. So for NL100 it was $3k. But now that i'm over 3k, I don't actually want to move up to NL100 just yet. I played a tiny session of NL100 yesterday and i got myself involved in some biggish hands and was honestly kinda scared shitless, even tho i actually won alot for the time i played. So i stopped playing, and i probably won't move up until at least the end of august (i'm actually thinking of waiting to 35-40 buy ins), because while i'm crushing NL50 (11 BB/100...only over 20k hands so take it at what you will) the swings would probably be too much for me to deal with at NL100 at this stage. Before i would move to NL200 i think i would need at least 50 buy ins and if i ever move to NL400/600 i would probably want close to 100.

Maybe it is just me, but i would think you would need at least 3BB/100 before you consider moving up unless you are playing really high stakes. The low limit games are so soft you really should be able to crush them. Having said that i notice almost 0 difference between NL25 and NL50. Only a few more better players and a few less fish.

before i move up i must have 300 bb for ring games and 200 for SnG's and MTT tourneys i don't want to move up and then haveta move right back down if i have a few bad runs if i get below 65%of my bb's then i will move back down and stay there until i and able to get up to 400bb's because if i haveta move back down then i need to work on my game more:icon_sant

I never said bankroll was not an issue, ive read and seen enough on that info, so i wanted some opinions on what your roi should be or how many hands you should have played b4 you know you are for sure a winning player at the level your at, and if it would carry over to the next level. I dont necessarily believe the play gets better as you move up levels. Sometimes those people just have more $. Its all relative. 100 bucks maybe alot to some people, but for others that may be a drop in the bucket. Obviously bankroll is the most important thing, no $ no move up. Keep em coming, always helps to have alot of others opinions.