Results Oriented Thinking

Why is it bad? I am guilty of doing this every time I play. I see all over the place people say its really bad to do. But have yet to find a good answer to why.

I want to win every time. When I lose about 90% of the time I can think of another way I could have played to change the results. It just seems like you should always be concerned with the results in everything you do…..

Please help me understand.

bz54321 said:

Why is it bad? I am guilty of doing this every time I play. I see all over the place people say its really bad to do. But have yet to find a good answer to why.

I want to win every time. When I lose about 90% of the time I can think of another way I could have played to change the results. It just seems like you should always be concerned with the results in everything you do…..

Please help me understand.

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Basing your thinking about the results of an actual hand is bad because the results don't always mean the decision was wrong. Example if we're being result oriented we might think we were wrong to get AIPF with KK vs the 40/35 maniac just because he happened to have AA this time. That would be wrong thinking since against his range we're a huge favorite.

WVHillbilly said:

Basing your thinking about the results of an actual hand is bad because the results don't always mean the decision was wrong. Example if we're being result oriented we might think we were wrong to get AIPF with KK vs the 40/35 maniac just because he happened to have AA this time. That would be wrong thinking since against his range we're a huge favorite.

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Okay, so its mainly just about getting it in good and losing. Where you should feel good about getting it in when you did.

Thank you for narrowing this down for me WV.

bz54321 said:

Okay, so its mainly just about getting it in good and losing. Where you should feel good about getting it in when you did.

Thank you for narrowing this down for me WV.

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Not always, that was just an example. Here is another. We're on the river with a strong hand (say top 2 pair) on an AK34T flush possible board against a weak player who will call with worse TP hands but who always has us beat when he raises (assume 200bb stacks). We're IP so we could check back but we really should be betting with the plan of folding if our opponent ch/rasies. It's results oriented to think that betting was wrong because we got ch/raised this time. We know that the bet was +EV so we really shouldn't be questioning that decision based on the result of being forced to fold.

If you are playing tourneys you can lose 90% of the time,But if you get it right once and win you will be in considerable profit..Unless you have edge on the rest of the field your chances of winning are very small.

WVHillbilly said:

Not always, that was just an example. Here is another. We're on the river with a strong hand (say top 2 pair) on an AK34T flush possible board against a weak player who will call with worse TP hands but who always has us beat when he raises (assume 200bb stacks). We're IP so we could check back but we really should be betting with the plan of folding if our opponent ch/rasies. It's results oriented to think that betting was wrong because we got ch/raised this time. We know that the bet was +EV so we really shouldn't be questioning that decision based on the result of being forced to fold.

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This is kind of were I would get confused. You are thinking about the results that's why you are folding here and not calling the re-raise. So this seems to me like results oriented thinking.

bz54321 said:

This is kind of were I would get confused. You are thinking about the results that's why you are folding here and not calling the re-raise. So this seems to me like results oriented thinking.

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No I'm thinking about what's the highest EV. I know I should be bet/folding because he never raises worse. It's only if I go back after he raises and say "I shouldn't have bet the river (because he raised)" that it's bad.

WVHillbilly said:

No I'm thinking about what's the highest EV. I know I should be bet/folding because he never raises worse. It's only if I go back after he raises and say "I shouldn't have bet the river (because he raised)" that it's bad.

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So this is my new definition for Results Oriented Thinking [Thinking about bad results were you made the correct decision] and in all other situations it is correct to be results oriented. Or am I still a little off base?

bz54321 said:

So this is my new definition for Results Oriented Thinking [Thinking about bad results were you made the correct decision] and in all other situations it is correct to be results oriented. Or am I still a little off base?

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The only "results" you should be thinking about are making the right (most +EV) decisions on every street. Whether you win or lose the hand is meaningless.

Thinking about bad +EV were you made the correct decision and in all other situations it is correct to be +EV oriented.



The more I think about it this just has to be wrong. In the scenario were the player is re-raised there should have been ques that clued them into the re-raise coming. There is always a way to know the hard part is finding the ques. Its even harder because the ques change for each situation. There must be a way to know based on the endless information being presented around you. (I guess this would be less true online) Also would not work as well in all-in pre-flop coin flip situations.

bz54321 said:

Thinking about bad +EV were you made the correct decision and in all other situations it is correct to be +EV oriented.

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You say this as if substituting "+EV" for "results oriented" is the same thing. They are not the same thing.

Not sure why this is so hard to grasp. Your goal in poker should not be to make money, your goal in poker should be to make correct decisions. If you make correct decisions, the money will follow over the long term. However due to variance, correct decisions do not always yield positive results. Since poker is a long-view game, it doesn't matter whether any given hand won or lost, all that matters is you made the correct decisions in playing the hand.

Focusing on results of any hand or even group of hands (regardless of EV) = results oriented = BAD. Unless you made a mistake in the hand, in which case you need to focus on the mistake and fixing it.

Focusing on correct decisions (i.e. +EV) = ignoring results = GOOD.

That's all there is to it. Not that it's necessarily easy for beginners to do it, but the concept should be clear enough.

Thanks WV and DM, I'm guilty myself of being results orientated, but everything you guys have said here is absolutely right...in order to improve your game and put everything you have learned/learning into practice, you need to fully concentrate on making the best decisions on a street to street basis....good posts guys, very helpful

It's like folding 87ss utg and the flop comes 4s5s6s if you think "damn I should have played that hand"

That's results oriented thinking.

Changing the way you normally play because of the results is bad.

Right?

Thanks for helping get the wheels turning on this.

I think it should be called not focusing on Bad Luck. But that just works for my brain I know some of you don't believe in luck.

Also I feel its a very fine line between bad luck and not taking in enough information about the situation.

:ridinghor

bz54321 said:

I think it should be called not focusing on Bad Luck. But that just works for my brain I know some of you don't believe in luck.

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You seem insistent on viewing this as being about negative variance or "bad luck."

It's not just about "bad" luck. The same concept applies when you beat someone after playing a hand poorly. Just because you got lucky and won doesn't mean it was the correct play, so you shouldn't say to yourself "well I won with J5o that time, so I should play it more often." That's also results-oriented thinking.

The point is that bad hands, or hands played badly, will sometimes win. And good hands or hands played correctly will sometimes lose. Focusing on *either* result and letting it affect your future play is being results-oriented, and must be avoided.

The point is that bad hands, or hands played badly, will sometimes win. And good hands or hands played correctly will sometimes lose. Focusing on *either* result and letting it affect your future play is being results-oriented, and must be avoided.

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Simple and to the point, I feel like a light bulb just light up in my head.

Thank You

Some times being result orientated can be a good thing. One instance would be when you see that you lost a hand, and it makes you review the hand in question. However when analyzing a hand, especially durring hand history reviews, it is important to not know the result of the hand before you think about the correct line to take. This is because humans will try to use logic to cover up their mistakes, as it is human nature to do this.
Remember in poker and gambling in general, do not let your emotions , or natural human instincts let you dictate your play. Everything about human nature is counter intuitive to what a gambler's nature should be. Being result orientated, playing scared, and carring about the money, playing to move up and survive, all fall into that category. So if you want to be a great gambler, and not just an ok poker player in the micros, realize that your basic human being is doing everything it can to keep you from making long term high profit gambles as a poker player.

kaptec said:

Some times being result orientated can be a good thing. One instance would be when you see that you lost a hand, and it makes you review the hand in question.

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But this isn't what we call results-oriented. One should always consider whether they made mistakes in a hand, especially when it plays out in an unexpected fashion, and correct as necessary with the goal of always making correct decisions regardless of individual hand results.

Being results-oriented in a poker context means not letting mistakes or variance alter what would be the correct decision going forward. For example, you suckout with a badly played hand, so you intentionally repeat the mistake thinking it might be profitable again. Or you get sucked out on after playing a hand correctly, so you choose to play the hand incorrectly next time to avoid the beat. Like you hear people saying crazy things like "I'm not getting AIPF with AA again, since the last x times I did it I lost." With some rare exceptions that will factor into the "correct" decision making process, it's pretty much always correct to get AIPF as a 80+% favorite, so to stop doing it just because variance is being a bitch, would be results-oriented thinking.

dmorris68 said:

You seem insistent on viewing this as being about negative variance or "bad luck."

It's not just about "bad" luck. The same concept applies when you beat someone after playing a hand poorly. Just because you got lucky and won doesn't mean it was the correct play, so you shouldn't say to yourself "well I won with J5o that time, so I should play it more often." That's also results-oriented thinking.

The point is that bad hands, or hands played badly, will sometimes win. And good hands or hands played correctly will sometimes lose. Focusing on *either* result and letting it affect your future play is being results-oriented, and must be avoided.

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Dang, that is a beautiful explanation DM ... and, this is superb too ... do you mind if I quote the following comment you have made as it is so "clearly explained"? (Certainly is poker wisdom)

Your goal in poker should not be to make money, your goal in poker should be to make correct decisions. If you make correct decisions, the money will follow over the long term. However due to variance, correct decisions do not always yield positive results. Since poker is a long-view game, it doesn't matter whether any given hand won or lost, all that matters is you made the correct decisions in playing the hand.

Focusing on results of any hand or even group of hands (regardless of EV) = results oriented = BAD. Unless you made a mistake in the hand, in which case you need to focus on the mistake and fixing it.

Focusing on correct decisions (i.e. +EV) = ignoring results = GOOD.

you seem to still kinda miss the point, if you bluff catch and happen to be right, its still bad if 95% of the time he doesnt bluff. results dont matter