The rake is to damn high

Abramo Della Luce

Abramo Della Luce

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I have been playing spin and go of 0.25$ and 1$ the last few months, and I have been playing them quite ok I think.
However, after 1500 games, with a total of almost 800$ of games played, I'm still about break even.
If I look at my luck adjusted winnings, I should have at least 28.70$ of profit, so I have not been running very lucky (the luck adjusted winnings are always calculated with a 2x game when losing).
I also have received already 12.03$ in rakeback and bonuses, giving me a total luck adjusted winnings of 40.73$., which would mean a ROI of about 5%
Facts are still that this is a hypothetical amount of money, and if it wasn't for the rakeback and bonuses, I would have 0$ profit.

Would it be a wise decision to change my path, and search for a different kind of game, where the rake is lower, because that's probably a big reason why I'm still at break even.
At 8%, these games are one of the highest raked games around (after beat the clock, which has 10% of rake).
Should I shift my focus more to something like cash games, which have a rake of 4.15% of rake (and no flop no drop)?
If I'm able to break even at 8% rake, I guess I could be profitable at another game type with 4% rake. I'm sure I will be able to adapt and study the different type of game, to be able to perform good.

By the luck adjusted winnings, I have the feeling I have potential of becoming profitable, but at lower rake in another game I might be even more profitable.

The positive things about staying with S&G are:

  • Fish, lot's of them
  • Better promotion running now, than at low stake cash games
  • I don't have to start learning a different kind of game again
The negative things are:

  • Very high rake
  • Higher variance


What should I do about S&G? Should I stay or should I go?
 
D

Dani_California

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I find Spin and Go's very difficult. They are so fast and based on luck more than skill in my opinion. It's hard to make winnings there and just like you said, you too are just breaking even. I would definitely at least try something else, like cash games for example. Especially at micro stakes you find fishes just as easily in every game. And you don't have to learn a whole new game, only adjust a little bit. Read couple of articles and watch a few YouTube videos before that and go take a shot. You can always return to Spin and Go's if you think that they are the best kind of game to you. Good luck!
 
SlimHeperpokerstars

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I have been playing spin and go of 0.25$ and 1$ the last few months, and I have been playing them quite ok I think.
However, after 1500 games, with a total of almost 800$ of games played, I'm still about break even.
If I look at my luck adjusted winnings, I should have at least 28.70$ of profit, so I have not been running very lucky (the luck adjusted winnings are always calculated with a 2x game when losing).
I also have received already 12.03$ in rakeback and bonuses, giving me a total luck adjusted winnings of 40.73$., which would mean a ROI of about 5%
Facts are still that this is a hypothetical amount of money, and if it wasn't for the rakeback and bonuses, I would have 0$ profit.

Would it be a wise decision to change my path, and search for a different kind of game, where the rake is lower, because that's probably a big reason why I'm still at break even.
At 8%, these games are one of the highest raked games around (after beat the clock, which has 10% of rake).
Should I shift my focus more to something like cash games, which have a rake of 4.15% of rake (and no flop no drop)?
If I'm able to break even at 8% rake, I guess I could be profitable at another game type with 4% rake. I'm sure I will be able to adapt and study the different type of game, to be able to perform good.

By the luck adjusted winnings, I have the feeling I have potential of becoming profitable, but at lower rake in another game I might be even more profitable.

The positive things about staying with S&G are:

  • Fish, lot's of them
  • Better promotion running now, than at low stake cash games
  • I don't have to start learning a different kind of game again
The negative things are:

  • Very high rake
  • Higher variance


What should I do about S&G? Should I stay or should I go?

Good question)) I have the same situation and I also would like to know the points of view of more experienced players in this regard ...
 
SlimHeperpokerstars

SlimHeperpokerstars

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I have been playing spin and go of 0.25$ and 1$ the last few months, and I have been playing them quite ok I think.
However, after 1500 games, with a total of almost 800$ of games played, I'm still about break even.
If I look at my luck adjusted winnings, I should have at least 28.70$ of profit, so I have not been running very lucky (the luck adjusted winnings are always calculated with a 2x game when losing).
I also have received already 12.03$ in rakeback and bonuses, giving me a total luck adjusted winnings of 40.73$., which would mean a ROI of about 5%
Facts are still that this is a hypothetical amount of money, and if it wasn't for the rakeback and bonuses, I would have 0$ profit.

Would it be a wise decision to change my path, and search for a different kind of game, where the rake is lower, because that's probably a big reason why I'm still at break even.
At 8%, these games are one of the highest raked games around (after beat the clock, which has 10% of rake).
Should I shift my focus more to something like cash games, which have a rake of 4.15% of rake (and no flop no drop)?
If I'm able to break even at 8% rake, I guess I could be profitable at another game type with 4% rake. I'm sure I will be able to adapt and study the different type of game, to be able to perform good.

By the luck adjusted winnings, I have the feeling I have potential of becoming profitable, but at lower rake in another game I might be even more profitable.

The positive things about staying with S&G are:

  • Fish, lot's of them
  • Better promotion running now, than at low stake cash games
  • I don't have to start learning a different kind of game again
The negative things are:

  • Very high rake
  • Higher variance


What should I do about S&G? Should I stay or should I go?

I find Spin and Go's very difficult. They are so fast and based on luck more than skill in my opinion. It's hard to make winnings there and just like you said, you too are just breaking even. I would definitely at least try something else, like cash games for example. Especially at micro stakes you find fishes just as easily in every game. And you don't have to learn a whole new game, only adjust a little bit. Read couple of articles and watch a few YouTube videos before that and go take a shot. You can always return to Spin and Go's if you think that they are the best kind of game to you. Good luck!


I disagree with you! CASH is a completely different strategy, for moving from MTT to CASH, a couple of articles will not be enough! A soft transition can be done with Cash in MTT, but not vice versa! The cache game has a lot more subtleties and it will not be easy just to find a couple of pieces ...
 
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Dani_California

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I disagree with you! CASH is a completely different strategy, for moving from MTT to CASH, a couple of articles will not be enough! A soft transition can be done with Cash in MTT, but not vice versa! The cache game has a lot more subtleties and it will not be easy just to find a couple of pieces ...
Yes, you are right. That is different. Except that he's not moving from MTT. He is playing Spin and Go's. But of course you need to adjust from there as well. You are right that sometimes you need to learn a bit longer but I don't see the gap being so big that you should't try.
 
Abramo Della Luce

Abramo Della Luce

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So, I have decided to give it another try. Looking at my expected winnings, I should have been well in the profit already.
I tried a cash game at 2NL and, I must say, there are plenty of fish there as well, but, to be really profitable, I should multi table, which is something I'll have to practice a bit more for.
I thing that playing 2 tables at spin and go, can be more profitable, even with the high rake of 8% (made some calculations, and when not counting with the 120x, 240x, and 12000x, the rake is almost 9%).

And look what happened last days...
Win, win, win.
Still not close to my expected profit of 47$, but 23.50$ is not too bad I would say.
 
WOLF55555

WOLF55555

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Try to play the tournaments. Rake in tournaments less. You can try the cash games. There is less rake at mid-stakes.
 
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matnautico

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Its very hard to beat spin&go rake, they give you the illusion that you can get a big score eventually and do It but the 2x spins will kill you overall. Low stakes cash also has very high rake but there is less variance and you can table select, so its very possible to make money.
 
TheNutz4You

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try mid stakes cash and mtt's. micro anything will rake you to death.
 
2NaCl

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Spin & Go's are just not poker IMO. You have the pseudo illusion that you have a chance to win all this crazy money but % wise it all ends up being the same.. Just skip it as a whole unless you feel like taking a risk here and there for entertainment purposes. Tournaments are far more profitable and have way less rake. So many better options I wonder why you chose Spin & Go's.. Gl though!
 
Abramo Della Luce

Abramo Della Luce

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Spin & Go's are just not poker IMO. You have the pseudo illusion that you have a chance to win all this crazy money but % wise it all ends up being the same.. Just skip it as a whole unless you feel like taking a risk here and there for entertainment purposes. Tournaments are far more profitable and have way less rake. So many better options I wonder why you chose Spin & Go's.. Gl though!
Firstly I started playing them for fun with play money.
After a while I saw that I was turning a profit, so I decided to try to play at the 0.25$ games, and was being slightly profitable.
Meanwhile I saw that most people don't have a clue what they are doing, which makes the games relatively easy to beat. I started studying heads up play and turbo games, to get better.
I always never counted on hitting the big one, and actually, when I calculate how good I have to play, I never even count with the 120x, 240x and 12000x, meaning the rake is almost 9%
Now I'm beating that rake, so I am at least doing something right, and am beating the average field. On top of that, my expected value is so much higher than what I really won, so that's another aspect that indicates it's not purely lottery and there is some (poker)skill involved. Anyway, I'm having some nice profit last days, so I'll just keep going with them a bit longer and see what comes out of the box :)
I know that I'm a relatively good MTT player, and I would really enjoy playing them more often, but I usually don't have the time to play several hours straight. That's why I was thinking about spin and go, cash game, or HU SNG.
 
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It's important to know the basics of cash games, that is playing deeper stacked poker. So I definitely think you should give it some time, and see how it goes.
There's also good money to be made in cash games, with less variance.
 
alienat3d

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@Abramo Della Luce, yeah i see your point. It's kind of advantage that Spin'n'Gos alluring a lot of fish, who don't know what are they doing, but playing it, cause if they eventually get lucky, they gonna get rich. But i am agreed with 2NaCl too. Spin'n'Gos are unprofitable on the long run for a good player in my opinion. And it's just because you have too few chips at the start and the blind levels up way too fast. And as it is at any turbo/super-turbo game, it's much more luck involved into, as a skill. I am personally SNG-player for 10 years, but all of those time i tried to avoid playing turbo games, as i think i just have not enough time for having a use of my experience..
 
n3rv

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The only way the rake will be lower is if more players leave the games and ultimately the client. However, due to advertising, they actually convince more players to try.
 
Abramo Della Luce

Abramo Della Luce

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@Abramo Della Luce, yeah i see your point. It's kind of advantage that Spin'n'Gos alluring a lot of fish, who don't know what are they doing, but playing it, cause if they eventually get lucky, they gonna get rich. But i am agreed with 2NaCl too. Spin'n'Gos are unprofitable on the long run for a good player in my opinion. And it's just because you have too few chips at the start and the blind levels up way too fast. And as it is at any turbo/super-turbo game, it's much more luck involved into, as a skill. I am personally SNG-player for 10 years, but all of those time i tried to avoid playing turbo games, as i think i just have not enough time for having a use of my experience..
When playing in full ring, you indeed don't have enough time, but when playing 3 handed and HU, I think you usually do have time to do something, unless you are running very bad.
 
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rhombus

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thought rake at cash was alot worse at the micros, it will wipe out most of your winnings unless you are a massive crusher.

Maybe MTTs, rake is 10% but the games are alot softer than cash and you arent paying rake every hand
 
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danielbalaci

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thought rake at cash was alot worse at the micros, it will wipe out most of your winnings unless you are a massive crusher.

Maybe MTTs, rake is 10% but the games are alot softer than cash and you arent paying rake every hand

Recently I realize that in cash games no body can make a profit because if you play 3000 hands all players at the table will lose all their chips, so if you insist in playing for a long time you will definitely lose all your money.
 
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danielbalaci

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In cash games you will lose all you money, it doesn't matter that you are a massive crusher or not so stick with your S&G is safer, and good luck in you games !
 
Abramo Della Luce

Abramo Della Luce

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Just a little update.
I decided to give it another shot, and see after 500 games where I would stand (meaning I would have a total of 2000 games).
Well, I managed to go over the 2000 games now, 2069 to be precise, and I'm glad I gave it one more chance. At the moment I have a profit of 54.50$ after grinding the 1$ tables.
I guess the luck did turn closer to my expected winnings. There is still a gap between the expected winnings and my real winnings, but I'm already happy I'm turning a profit.
 
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