Quick question about out counting

Hello all,

I am new to the forums so sorry for asking a question that is likely to already been asked. Perhaps I should search for it but nevertheless here it is:
When counting outs do we only count the outs for our intended hand, i.e. the 5th card on a flush, or are we counting backdoor cards too like the flush outs and the same outs for a two pair or set?

Sorry, I am a new to strategic poker.

Cheers

Depends on exactly what you mean by "backdoor cards". Generally a backdoor draw is when you need 2 cards to make your hand (i.e. you have 3 cards to the flush on the flop and you need to hit runner runner to make a flush). Those cards are not counted as outs as runner runner draws are unlikely (I think its less than 4% to hit runner runner flush).

But the way you are describing backdoor cards makes it sound like you mean cards that will make other strong hands for you other than the main draw you have and in that case you DO count all 1 card outs that you think will make you the best hand, i.e. if you had AcKc on a Tc7s3c board and you think your opponent has top pair, you count both the 9 flush outs plus the 6 over cards (3 aces and 3 kings) that would make you the best hand.

There is also the concept of discounted outs, where all your outs may not be "clean" i.e. you might make your hand but the card could improve an opponents hand even more. i.e. you've got 6c7c on a 4h5hAd board, the 3h and 8h will make your straight but could give someone else a flush so you would discount those outs when doing your calculations.

Hope this helps...

You were absolutely right in your assumption of my usage of the term backdoor cards. Nice read. I obviously have some jargon to learn. Thanks.
This definitely answered my question and helps me out. Thank you very much, DEdwardsNJ.

In a perfect world, 'outs' would describe only the cards that will give you the winning hand.

But we are not perfect, so we usually count 'outs' as cards which will improve our hand. So we count the cards that will give us pairs along with those flush and str8 draws we want to know a number of outs for.

When I need one more to make a flush after the flush, I count that as 36%. I'm also aware of other cards that may give me a winner.

All outs are not the same. Some are clean, meaning that they improve our hand to the nuts or effective nuts; i.e. if we hit a clean out, we are certain or almost certain to win the pot.

Improving out hand but still having a losing hand is obviously not good. Indeed, it can be expensive. To clarify what was said above, this can occur not just when a card improves both you and the opponent, but also when the opponent doesn't improve but has you beat anyway.

Discounting non-nut outs doesn't mean counting them as 0. It means gauging how value to assign. For instance, if you're drawing to the K-high flush on an otherwise dry board, your 9 outs are not clean because the A-high flush will still beat you. However, they are closer to clean than if you are drawing to the baby flush. So, in the first case, you might value the 9 outs that make a flush for you as equivalent to say 8 clean ones, whereas in the latter situation, you ought to assign a somewhat lower value because the chance you will hit and still lose is higher.

Thanks for your input guys. Much appreciated. I suppose it just takes time to make this second nature because I certainly cannot do it fast enough for online play. My meter always runs out. I am fairly good at math too. It's more just figuring out the overcards needed for each hand. Any training site you would recommend?
Thanks again.

here is a decent website for outs.
puts it into game(points) form but still allows time to digest your answer.
Also good because it makes you give outs for when ahead and behind to make you think about what the villians may have
also has multiple villian hands at once.
I think it's pretty good. IMO
http://howmanyouts.com/

Just a specific note, If you hold 2 cards of the same suit and flop 2 cards of that suit on the flop then then chances of you making your flush is roughly 25%. The chances of someone else having the same 2 color cards as yourself is 3%. However, your hand strength goes down significantly if you hold 2 lower cards of the same suit and 4 cards of your suit end up on the board!

Played at howmanyouts.com for a few minutes tonight... Was kind of fun.. have to play again some later but I received 5th highest for the mth. or wk. Wiiiiiiiiiiiiiii