Question re: NL Hold em betting

I've asked this question in other forums with no definitive answer.

What is the "minimum" raise a player with planty of chips can make as follows: (ignore blinds or position. They are acting in order.)
No Limit Hold'em.
Player A bets $40.
Next player B goes all in for $58.
Player C wants to make a minimum raise.

Is the minimum amount $80? (2x player A bet which completes player B)

Is it $116? (2x player B)

Is it $98? (call player B $58 raise player A $40)

Or something else?

I'm ignoring the half bet rule. That's why I make an amount of "all in" less than half.

I could be wrong but...

I'm pretty sure that because player B's all in was not a real raise player c would be stuck with a $40 minimum for the raise making it $80.


OZ would be the one with the answer on this one.

Would it not depend on what hand you had?

First need to know what limits you are playing. to know what player A's raise was ex: if your playing 5/10 then player a raised $30 on top which would mean player b's raise was more than half of player a's bet. Posty the limits you are talking about so we can give you the proper answer. But if your talking about post flop then player c must make a full raise which is $40 so the raise should be to $80. Heres the rules and a few examples from Roberts rules of poker:



2. The minimum bet size is the amount of the minimum bring-in, unless the player is going all-in. The minimum bring-in is the size of the big blind unless the structure of the game is preset by the house to some other amount (such as double the big blind). The minimum bet remains the same amount on all betting rounds. If the big blind does not have sufficient chips to post the required amount, a player who enters the pot on the initial betting round is still required to enter for at least the minimum bet (unless going all-in for a lesser sum) and a preflop raiser must at least double the size of the big blind. At all other times, when someone goes all-in for less than the minimum bet, a player has the option of just calling the all-in amount. If a player goes all-in for an amount that is less than the minimum bet, a player who wishes to raise must raise at least the amount of the minimum bet. For example, if the minimum bet is $100, and a player goes all-in on the flop for $20, a player may fold, call $20, or raise to at least a total of $120
3. All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager.[ Example: Player A bets 100 and player B raises to 200. Player C wishing to raise must raise at least 100 more, making the total bet at least 3. A player who has already checked or called may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)

4. Multiple all-in wagers, each of an amount too small to qualify as a raise, still act as a raise and reopen the betting if the resulting wager size to a player qualifies as a raise.
Example: Player A bets $100 and Player B raises $100 more, making the total bet $200. If Player C goes all in for less than $300 total (not a full $100 raise), and Player A calls, then Player B has no option to raise again, because he wasn't fully raised. (Player A could have raised, because Player B raised.)

What Grossberger said - we don't have enough information to give an accurate answer. We need to know whether it's preflop or postflop, and if it's preflop, what size the blinds are. But here goes if you want to fill in your own gaps.

If it's preflop, then the minimum raise will be $40 - $x, where x is the size of the big blind. So in a $5-$10 game the initial raise was $30 and minimum raise after that would be to $70.

If it's postflop and nobody has acted before A then $40 is the initial bet size and the minimum raise after that would be to $80.

In either case, player B's shove is less than a full raise so we ignore it for the purposes of working out what the minimum for C to raise is. Note that if C just flat calls B's shove (and nobody else raises after him) then A only has the option to call or fold, he can't raise again.

I think OZ is correct.
I was trying to make it simple. After flop, no previous bets.
The reason was to determine the minimum to bet to cap the raising on the 3rd bet (I know I only used 1 bet) so that I could see the next card for only $60 or $70 instead of being forced all in by someone behind me taking the last raise for $200, $500 or more etc..
In any scenario if player Bs bet is not a complete raise then there is still action and if I was in position to cap the betting (with minimum amount), what is that amount?
Like I said before. A dealer at a cash game card room said it is the minimum is calling player B's all in and raising player A's amount.
But I haven't seen it in writing anywhere.

I don't think you've understood "capping" quite right - limit games sometimes have a four-bet cap on any street but this is no limit where there shouldn't be any bet capping ever.

So if you raise to $80 there's nothing stopping someone behind you re-raising to $200, someone after that popping it to $500 and then Player A shoving for $1200 when it gets back to him (hypothetical assuming people have that much in their stacks obv). That'd be five bets. People can keep raising until they're all in with no caps on the betting, as long as they've got enough in their stacks to make at least a minimum raise each time.

If Player C just calls B's shove and everyone folds around to A then he only has the option to call or fold - not because the betting has been capped in any way, but because B's shove wasn't big enough to constitute a minimum raise.

If for some reason your card room has rules different to that and has a betting cap in a no limit game then you really need to be asking them and not us because it's totally non-standard.

The interesting scenario is when the following happens:

Player A bets 500
Player B raises 1000
Player C is all in for 1250

Even if A wants to reraise, he cannot since player C did not make a legal raise.

awesome example ethan!

ethon said:

The interesting scenario is when the following happens:

Player A bets 500
Player B raises 1000
Player C is all in for 1250

Even if A wants to reraise, he cannot since player C did not make a legal raise.

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Sorry but this is just wrong.

Player A can raise because Player B has made a legal raise. A has the option to call, fold or raise as a result.

If A just flat calls then B only has the option to call or fold because the raise to him is less than the minimum.

Oz = professional dealer, btw.

Oz, I used "capping incorrectly. I should probably say "end the betting".
Here in Florida cash games (not tourney) they have a 3 raise max per round. So you can be in position with one raise to go and large stacks (or big bettors) behind you. You can see the next card for the minimum raise. It also builds a slight side pot above the all in player B.

But I still haven't seen it in writing anywhere.
Thanks for all the inputs though.

dg5925xx said:

Oz, I used "capping incorrectly. I should probably say "end the betting".
Here in Florida cash games (not tourney) they have a 3 raise max per round. So you can be in position with one raise to go and large stacks (or big bettors) behind you. You can see the next card for the minimum raise. It also builds a slight side pot above the all in player B.

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Wow - that's a really horrible rule. I think I'm on dealer tilt just reading it. If that's the case at your card room then you're using capping in the right context but it's like I said above, we can't really help you on it because it's completely different to the standard rule.

The standard rule from Robert's Rules of Poker (the closest thing we've got to a univerally accepted set of rules for poker, almost everyone follows them) is this:

Link here: http://www.homepokertourney.com/roberts-rules-of-poker.htm

Capping the action to three bets / raises is a limit poker rule.

OzExorcist said:

Sorry but this is just wrong.

Player A can raise because Player B has made a legal raise. A has the option to call, fold or raise as a result.

If A just flat calls then B only has the option to call or fold because the raise to him is less than the minimum.

Click to expand...

the card room I used to play at if someone went all in for atleast 1/2 a minimum raise the betting was open. is this not a common rule?

blinds 100/200
player A: 1500 bets 600
player B: 800 goes all in for 800
player C: 2200 calls the 800

player A would now be able to raise as the allin was atleast 1/2 the minimum raise allowed.

cardplayer52 said:

the card room I used to play at if someone went all in for atleast 1/2 a minimum raise the betting was open. is this not a common rule?

blinds 100/200
player A: 1500 bets 600
player B: 800 goes all in for 800
player C: 2200 calls the 800

player A would now be able to raise as the allin was atleast 1/2 the minimum raise allowed.

Click to expand...

That's the standard rule for a limit game. In no limit, the standard is that an all-in has to be at least a full minimum raise to reopen the betting to someone that has already acted.

From Robert's Rules, Section 14, No Limit rules:

(Emphasis added).

Again though, if your particular card club or casino uses a different rule you just go with it I guess.

OzExorcist said:

That's the standard rule for a limit game. In no limit, the standard is that an all-in has to be at least a full minimum raise to reopen the betting to someone that has already acted.

From Robert's Rules, Section 14, No Limit rules:

3. All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. Example: Player A bets 100 and player B raises to 200. Player C wishing to raise must raise at least 100 more, making the total bet at least 300. A player who has already acted and is not facing a fullsize wager may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the minimum bet or less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)
​

(Emphasis added).

Again though, if your particular card club or casino uses a different rule you just go with it I guess.

Click to expand...

This guy is 100% right though out this thread!!! - Listen to him!!