Question on position

Hi again,

Let's say you're dealt 55 in late position on a fairly normal 10NL table early in session, no stats available. Your intention is to steal, set mine or just raise 3x BB. I know this is "officially" the right way to think, but what if someone raises from say mid-position ahead? Do I automatically 3b (to 9x BB or whatever), as I know odds of hitting a set is 12.5% or whatever. A 3xBB raise from me should be good in the long run, either it's a steal or someone calls and I hit the set 12.5% of flops. In the long run, this should be profitable.

So, to summarize, pocket 55 late position, intention of raising. What if:
1) Mid position raises first, do I 3b? Or call?
2) If I 3b, and he 4b, do I always fold?

Guess this goes for any mid- to low range hand, should I only raise if noone raised before me? The reason I am asking, is that if not... then position wouldn't be important. The only upside (if not intending to seeing the flop as cheaply as possible), would be to CB the flop (without hitting) and induce a fold.

Any other input in possible circumstances would be widely appreciated. Thanks!

Raise all pocket pairs preflop from late positon if noone has already raised. I raise all PPs from every position in 6max but you should probably fold lower PPs from EP in full-ring games.

When someone has already raised from MP, it's probably more profitable to call with 55 to setmine rather than 3bet. But if the blinds 3bet a lot (and MP folds to 3bets) then you may be better off 3betting yourself before they do. This is because you don't want to be calling 3bets to setmine in general. Another reason to 3b would be if MP is a total fish (for example you know he calls way to many 3bet then gives up postflop) and you are trying to isolate him.

Fold if you 3b with 55 and get 4b.

I might be alone here, but I don't raise with 5-5 ever. I would try to see a flop for cheap. It is just a pair of 5's, and you are very unlikely to hit a set.

I believe the goal is to get in cheap, flop a set, or get out to strong resistance. While position is important, if you don't flop a set your hand is dead.

As always this is my opinion. Take it or leave it. I am a very conservative player. I don't raise with 5-5 ever. I just think it's a trouble hand.

So you limp in?

Open raising from late position with 55 will accomplish several things:

1) Possible blind steal
2) Get to play the hand in position
3) Can cbet and induce folds even if you don't hit
4) Able to build a decent pot when you do hit a set
5) Not have a weak-ass passive table image.

or
1. Lose you more when you don't hit the set 9 out of 10 times.
2. Lose you more money when you get trapped with your c-bet.


Yes I do limp.

I said, very clearly in my post "As always this is my opinion. Take it or leave it."

I will continue playing the way I do, and not risk valuable chips with small PP's. You may even be right. But I feel the way I feel.

I forgot to add, I don't have a passive table image. Just because I don't raise 5-5, that doesn't mean I am passive. I am very aggressive with cards I like.

Beanfacekilla said:

or
1. Lose you more when you don't hit the set 9 out of 10 times.
2. Lose you more money when you get trapped with your c-bet.

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1. But you don't lose more overall because you occasionally stack someone and win more than all the small lost pots combined.
2. If you choose your boards and opponents to cbet wisely then you dont lose money here either. I wasn't saying cbet every time.

Beanfacekilla said:

I said, very clearly in my post "As always this is my opinion. Take it or leave it."

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That's fine. And I am giving my opinion

Oh ok. I took the post the wrong way a little bit. I have to learn emotion can not be interpreted easily from text.

micromachine said:

1. But you don't lose more overall because you occasionally stack someone and win more than all the small lost pots combined.
2. If you choose your boards and opponents to cbet wisely then you dont lose money here either. I wasn't saying cbet every time.

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Ok this makes sense. However, when I go to the cardroom, the play is very soft.

These people are just so bad, they will call you down to the river with any pair. I just pick different spots, that's all. These people always pay me when I get a monster (and suck me out once in a while of course).

I would c-bet if my opponents had half a brain. But, they just always flat call. These opponents at the charity poker rooms are much worse than the people I find in microstakes online. They will call $25 or more on the flop, with nothing but runner runner draws, just to see another card. I really don't try to get fancy against these people. However, if the time is right, I will c-bet.

I have found there is no right way to play poker all the time. Every situation is different. I may raise 5-5 LP if I was feeling it at the time. But generally I don't.

Good thread.

Open limping is generally bad.

Micro has summed up most of the points. Like you cant take the blinds etc etc.

One of my friends limps all his PP in our home games and at live cash and tournies. Did he ever get paid off by me for a set? No he did not. He threw his cards face up by limping and then getting aggro post flop.

I do totally understand what you guys are saying. However, I assume you are a decent poker player. You actually think about what your opponent holds. The people I play against do not.

If I flop a set when I limp with a small PP, I have no problems getting calls.

I will take your advice, and try a different approach today. I am about to go to the charity poker room in a few minutes. We'll see what happens. It can't hurt to try new things, as I am always looking to improve my game. But I think the strategy you guys are suggesting works better against good players. 80% of the players at the poker room are REALLY bad. Online players are usually much better.

As always, than you for the advice. I am learning many good things here at the forum. That is why I chose to join, to learn from others.

Edit: What would be the point of risking money to win the blinds, when they are only $1/$2? It seems stealing blinds would be a better play in an MTT for example. I play much differently in MTT's than cash. Since I am primarily a cash player, I think about poker with cash games in mind generally.

It is less important when playing weaker players, but it will be something you will have to consider when playing online. We must play all of our hands as similarly as possible to avoid our opponents reading us. Then the age old saying, ' when first to contribute to the pot, if a hand is good enough to play with, it should be good enough to raise with.'

Good luck

youregoodmate said:

It is less important when playing weaker players, but it will be something you will have to consider when playing online. We must play all of our hands as similarly as possible to avoid our opponents reading us. Then the age old saying, ' when first to contribute to the pot, if a hand is good enough to play with, it should be good enough to raise with.'

Good luck

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Thank you sir. I edited my post above, and I don't know if you saw it or not. I would like your input on that as well if you would please...

When you consider a good winrate for NLHE is 6-8 big blinds per 100 hands, then stealing 1.5 big blinds makes a difference. If we get called we can make profit from c betting and then can obviously make huge profit when we flop a set (and because we raised pre its very disguised).

youregoodmate said:

When you consider a good winrate for NLHE is 6-8 big blinds per 100 hands, then stealing 1.5 big blinds makes a difference. If we get called we can make profit from c betting and then can obviously make huge profit when we flop a set (and because we raised pre its very disguised).

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Ok thanks for the input. Very solid advice.

A couple things to add or reinforce:

You need proper implied odds to setmine profitably. So it's highly dependent on effective stacks, villain tendencies, the action thus far and the expected action behind when you're OOP (thus position is a consideration).

Further, limping your small pairs and raising your big pairs is highly exploitable. You need to be balancing your ranges. Bet sizing is always subject to variation based on a lot of factors, but hand strength in a cash game is typically not one of them unless a very specific situation calls for it. Never do it as a pattern or general rule. This may vary a bit for certain stages of MTTs, but is still generally a bad idea if you make it obvious. And as has been said, open limping is rarely a correct play.

Finally, while MTT and cash strategies are certainly different, stealing blinds is absolutely important in cash and contributes significantly to your bottom line.

When entering an unopened pot we should raise regardless. With a small PP it's even more important... to take the blinds, or at least pare it down to one villain.

I don't know where the small PP has gotten it's reputation for strength. Any good player can outplay a naked 55.

If we don't hit the flop, all were left with is bottom pair.

If your facing a MP raise, then the read is more important than the cards. If it's a solid player, we prolly should dump 55. But, if we think we can outplay them post flop, then it's not about the cards any more.

In essence, I would not play a 55 against a raise unless I think I can outplay villain after my 55 doesn't hit. Which it won't. Which means that I'm not really concerned with my cards at that point.

Low pocket pairs are like old folks on a long car ride. How do they handle it?... Depends.

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JusSumguy said:

When entering an unopened pot we should raise regardless. With a small PP it's even more important... to take the blinds, or at least pare it down to one villain.

I don't know where the small PP has gotten it's reputation for strength. Any good player can outplay a naked 55.

If we don't hit the flop, all were left with is bottom pair.

If your facing a MP raise, then the read is more important than the cards. If it's a solid player, we prolly should dump 55. But, if we think we can outplay them post flop, then it's not about the cards any more.

In essence, I would not play a 55 against a raise unless I think I can outplay villain after my 55 doesn't hit. Which it won't. Which means that I'm not really concerned with my cards at that point.

Low pocket pairs are like old folks on a long car ride. How do they handle it?... Depends.

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Theyre strong because they flop the most profitable hand in Hold Em. Are you saying you fold PP to an open raise?

youregoodmate said:

Theyre strong because they flop the most profitable hand in Hold Em. Are you saying you fold PP to an open raise?

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Depends... that's my point.

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Well I am back from the poker room. I picked good spots, and raised with my small PP's today. I did not flop one set all day, but I did take some decent pots from these small PP's.

The last hand I played before I left was 6-6. 1/2 blinds, I raised to $7. One caller. He was a decent player, not a donk by any means.

Flop was 10-7-5 I think, 2 spades. Opponents checks, I bet 16. he calls.

Turn A hearts.

Check to me again, I bet again. $30 this time. Folded after some contemplation. Since I raised preflop, he probably thought I paired the ace.

But for this play to work, it has to be 2 or 3 people max going to flop, and postion is of the utmost importance.

I even raised one dude when I was on the button with (what do you know) 5-5. He led out, and it just looked like a probe. I raised him strong. He called. Next card he checks. I fire another barrell, he hollywoods for a moment, and folds.

Thanks fellow forum members. That was really good advice.

However, I really had to grind today. I was there for 9 hours, and only profited $216. I got sucked out a couple times really bad, but I never got felted. Lowest I got was $100 in chips (bought in for $200). The table was REALLY crazy too. $50 + on very many flops, until this dude who was seriously tilted got felted (by me). I had J-J, and raised in the CO to $24. He shoves UTG (he straddled, so that is why he didn't shove before action got to me) for $115 after a -$600 implosion. He mucked it, and I took it down. He was just playing so crazy, I thought my J-J was golden for sure.

Good day today. I learned alot, and left with profit.

Thanks again for everyones' tips in this thread.