Question about raise sizing

DaReKa

DaReKa

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What is considered a normal raise size say if someone cbets the flop and you raise them?

I know there are probably a TON of different situations that call for different size raises, etc. Could anyone list a few common situations for flop raises and appropriate raise sizes for them?
 
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Flsnookman

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Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you have the nutz maybe just call and hope they fire another shell on the turn. If you are drawing to the nutz but feel you are behind ie. they have a hand, maybe raise the pot to get them to fold a weaker (but stronger than your current) hand. In general a 3/4 pot size raise should get most c betters to lay down if they have no hand but again everyone plays different so......Also, i'm no pro so please take any advice I give with a grain of salt. Good luck.
 
Aleksei

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Well, it's really read-based. If you think someone's cbet bluffing a lot maybe fire off a click-raise to try to get them to fold air. If you have a strong made hand on a really scary board you wanna raise or check-raise huge, to protect your equity. Most of the time though, I'd think you wanna call and take initiative or reevaluate on the turn; it's easier to balance.
 
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My starting point is 3x the current bet. I adjust depending on whether I want a caller or not.
 
Aleksei

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My starting point is 3x the current bet. I adjust depending on whether I want a caller or not.
You need to watch your pot odds when you do that. If Villain folds more frequently to a bigger bet, but then he's folding less often than you need him to fold to profit, you're losing money when you bet bigger.
 
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What is considered a normal raise size say if someone cbets the flop and you raise them?

I know there are probably a TON of different situations that call for different size raises, etc. Could anyone list a few common situations for flop raises and appropriate raise sizes for them?

what odd you offer them to call?

eg

if you offer a 1:3 odds, then 3 time raise is fine.

pot=1, raise=1/2 [eg half pot size cbet], you min raise 1.5

he needs 1 of pot to call 1+0.5+1.5= 3 unit pot.

____

if u offer even worse pot odds, then just raise bigger.
if u want to offer better pot odds, just raise small.
 
BluffyouBAD

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Depends on situation and your read on player.

If you have top pair and a good kicker and want to stop a guy from drawing bet big to give him incorrect odds.
If you have the nuts and want a call or to induce a big bluff just call or min raise to keep pot odds favorable from his perspective.

Just to be sure you don't get Predictable with your bet sizes and start using same bets to frequently or good players will pick up on that and have a better idea of your range.
 
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vinnie

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I base it more on stack-sizes, as relate to the size of the pot after my call/raise. I want to bet as little as possible when I don't want to get all-in (often a min-raise). If I do plan on getting stacks in, I try to bet enough that I can shove for less than pot on the turn. If that's not possible, I try and break his stack down into two chunks that will work for a river shove of 1/2-3/4 pot.

This can get a little complicated. A 3/4th=pot river bet requires that 2/5ths of the original stacks get in by the turn. So, if he started with 100xbb. And, he raised 3xbb pre-flop, and bets 4xbb on the flop, he's put in 7xbb and I need to get 33xbb more in. If I raise 9xbb here (to 13xbb), I can bet 24xbb on the turn (into ~32xbb). Then it's a simple shove of 60xbb into 80xbb on the river. You'll note that I can't get him all-in on the turn with two pot sized bets (3xbb + 18xbb + 42xbb = 63xbb), so I keep my bets smaller and need to plan for the river.

Anyway, it's a little tricky on the fly. But, you get better with some practice. I might not get things exactly split in the middle of a hand (so all bets remain proportional to the then-current pot), but I'll usually get pretty close.

Edit: The min-raise is pretty exploitable, if it always means you don't want to get in. But at the stakes I play (up to 25nl), I find few players appear to exploit it. If you find someone exploiting it, you can use it to leverage your big hands instead for a while (since they'll raise/call often) And you can up your bluff amounts to the lower end of where you're normally raising to get them in by the river. I've planned for it, but I've never had to go to the plan. Still, the min-raise is stronger in 3-bet pots, in a normal raised pot, I might go got 2.5-3xbb even on a bluff.
 
vinnie

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I was thinking about this question. And, tonight I had a few hands where I raised a flop c-bet (for value). First hand, we had deep stacks:

Bovada 10nl -- 4 Handed
BTN: 41.5 bb
SB [Hero]: 170.6 bb
BB: 30 bb
UTG: 205.2 bb

Pre-flop: (4 Players) [1.5xbb] Hero is dealt :4d4::4s4:
UTG raises to 3xbb, 1 fold, Hero calls 2.5xbb, 1 fold.

Flop: (2 Players) [7xbb] :8d4::8c4::4h4:
Hero checks, UTG bets 3.5xbb, Hero raises to 15.5xbb, UTG calls 12xbb.

I need to raise here because we're 170xbb deep, and I won't be able to play this for stacks without getting 4 bets in after the flop. I want my last bet to be about 2/3rds of the starting stack (at most). This is because that will be a pot sized bet. That means I want to bet about 114xbb on the river.

He put in 6.5xbb, that's a lot of money to go (49.5xbb by the river). So I divide the 50xbb by 4 and raise that amount here. I will bet the rest of the 50xbb on the turn.

This assumes he calls. But, on this flop, I am not afraid to raise here. If he folds, I probably wasn't going to make much anyway (hands that fold to a raise here are just too weak to play for stacks). If I raise, I get massive value out of trips. I really want him to have A-8 here, because he'll never fold that.

Turn: (2 Players) [38xbb] :8d4::8c4::4h4::3s4:
Hero bets 36xbb, UTG calls 36xbb.

Turn card changes nothing. I continue with my plan and try to get the rest of the 49.5xbb in (I bet 36 -- which is a hair low). He calls, which is great because I am set up for my river shove.​

River: (2 Players) [110xbb] :8d4::8c4::4h4::3s4::9c4:
Hero ALL-IN for 116.1xbb, UTG calls 116.1xbb.

This is not the best river in the world. But, there are a lot of 8-x hands other than 9-8 in this range. If he's sucked out on me, he's going to win a big pot. I have just a little more than a pot sized bet (6.1xbb -- 61c here), and I stick it all in.

UTG thinks about it for about 20 seconds, and makes the call.​

Hero shows: :4s4::4d4: --- Full House, 4s full of 8s.
UTG shows: :jh4::8h4: --- Three of a kind, 8s.

Hero wins: 332.2xbb (10xbb rake).

-----
So, in this situation, I am raising for value. I need to make my raise large simply because of the stack sizes. If I don't raise large, I can't get stacks in by the river.

With smaller stacks, say he had 50xbb at the start of the hand, I have more options. I could raise to (13.5xbb) and shove the turn (33.5 into 34xbb). Or I could min-raise to 7xbb, bet 14xbb (2/3rds pot) on the turn, and bet 26xbb (about half pot) on the river. Those smaller bets might suck in some more suspicious players.

Same hand, same goal (getting the stacks in), but different bet sizes based on his stack. So, the answer to your original question is very complicated.

This is just one hand. If you have a weaker hand, where you might not want to get stacks in, you would make different bets. If you have a strong draw (combo-draw), you might raise more to increase your fold-equity. If it's a pure bluff, you want to raise enough to get the folds when he's c-betting air but no more.

And that's just a few considerations. To be honest, my biggest concern, if I am raising a flop c-bet, is usually setting up shoves. I may not actually follow through with that plan, depending on the turn and my actual hand strength. Still, a big way to increase your wins in NL is to get someone's stack more often. To do that, you need to be setting up your bets in a way to win stacks.

Edit: I had two other hands (one a bluff and one where I was raising a donk-bet that I figured was weak but I would have to fold to a reraise) but I lost both of them because of Bovada's horrible hand history interface. I might be able to find them tomorrow or the next day, when I import them into PT4. For right now, I only have this one.
 
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