Question about pot odds?

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lukeellul92

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Okay , so I know pot odds and how to calculate them.

So, before the flop, what odds do you need to call? when you're UTG you don't exactly have great odds to call so I know you need a pretty good hand, and to play UTG optimally you need a premium/monster hand anyway.

So, what hands would you need to call say, 3:1 compared to maybe 5/6:1.


POST FLOP:

Once you've seen the flop, and you calculate your outs, using the rule of 2 and 4 , do the pot odds need to work together with your outs in order for your play to be mathematically correct?

For example, if you're getting a %20 to hit your outs on the turn, do the pot odds need to be 5:1 for you to play?

I apologise if this is a newbish question but I have always wondered.
 
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HooDooKoo

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Your post makes it clear that you know nothing about odds --- pot or otherwise. If you want to learn, there's a great internet tool called google. Check it out.

-HooDooKoo
 
fletchdad

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@ HooDooKoo: When someone has no idea and thinks they do, BUT are also posting in the learning poker thread, a certain amount of civility could be achieved with very little effort.

"Look in google" is not an effort. This IS the learning poker section, and you usually have very helpful advice. Instructing someone to go somewhere else for info is not a great answer, and I kind of agree with OP that no answer might have been better. OR you could voice your opinion on his opinion of himself, and follow that up with the usual quality info you can give.

The name calling from both sides could also be left for other forums. Civility is simply a better option IMO.

Here is a place to start: https://www.cardschat.com/poker-odds-pot-odds-implied-odds.php
 
steveiam

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"So, before the flop, what odds do you need to call? when you're UTG" If you are UTG, that means your first to act so pot odd's dont really apply.You are just basing your decision to raise or fold on your starting hand range..
 
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lukeellul92

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@ HooDooKoo: When someone has no idea and thinks they do, BUT are also posting in the learning poker thread, a certain amount of civility could be achieved with very little effort.

"Look in google" is not an effort. This IS the learning poker section, and you usually have very helpful advice. Instructing someone to go somewhere else for info is not a great answer, and I kind of agree with OP that no answer might have been better. OR you could voice your opinion on his opinion of himself, and follow that up with the usual quality info you can give.

The name calling from both sides could also be left for other forums. Civility is simply a better option IMO.

Here is a place to start: https://www.cardschat.com/poker-odds-pot-odds-implied-odds.php


Thankyou, that link answered my question within the first 2 paragraphs! My assumptions were correct, I just have a very horrible way of putting it into words.
 
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HooDooKoo

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Your assumptions aren't even close. Try again.

-HooDooKoo
 
10058765

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"So, before the flop, what odds do you need to call? when you're UTG" If you are UTG, that means your first to act so pot odd's dont really apply.You are just basing your decision to raise or fold on your starting hand range..
Steve, limping UTG is basically calling.
The first bet is the BB, so if you limp UTG you basically call that first bet.

If it comes to odds and outs, well, the number of outs you have compared to the odds given define if it's profitable to call (not talking about implied odds yet).
 
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lukeellul92

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Steve, limping UTG is basically calling.
The first bet is the BB, so if you limp UTG you basically call that first bet.

If it comes to odds and outs, well, the number of outs you have compared to the odds given define if it's profitable to call (not talking about implied odds yet).


So, say I have a %20 to hit my outs on the flop, would I need 5-1 pot odds to mathematically make call and be in profit over x number of hands? is that how it works?
 
steveiam

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Who said anything about limping UTG ???
 
10058765

10058765

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So, say I have a %20 to hit my outs on the flop, would I need 5-1 pot odds to mathematically make call and be in profit over x number of hands? is that how it works?

No, you need 4-1 pot odds.
If you win the hand you'll profit 4x your calling amount.....right ?
Well if you have 20 % to hit your outs you'll win 1 outof 5 times and so obv lose 4 outof 5 times.....sounds clear?
So, one time you win the hand and make a profit of 4xCalling amount which is $8.
4 Times you'll lose the calling amount which totals $8.

Suppose there's a raise of $2 on the flop which makes the pot $10.
Calling there for $2 gives you 5-1 odds...invest $2 to get a $10 profit.
If you have 20% to hit your outs it means you'll win 1 outof 5 hands.
Which means 1 hand you'll profit $10, the other 4 hands you'll lose $2 each, which is $8 total, which will bring you a profit of $2 over these 5 hands.

Now suppose you're still gonna hit your outs 20% of time.
Though, now there's a flopbet of $2 making the pot $8.
In this case you have to call $ 2 to profit $8.
Your pot odds are 4-1.
Still, 1 outof 5 hands you'll hit your outs and get your profit, which is $8.
The other 4 hands you'll lose, which totals for 4 x $2 = $8.
Here we are BE, although only theoratically because rake will cost you.

Important....here I'm just talking about flops, without going into implied or reversed odds....
 
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10058765

10058765

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Who said anything about limping UTG ???

Hey, don't get me wrong...small chance I would critisize you, but you were talking about calling UTG, which preflop is the same as limping UTG, no?
 
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lukeellul92

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No, you need 4-1 pot odds.
If you win the hand you'll profit 4x your calling amount.....right ?
Well if you have 20 % to hit your outs you'll win 1 outof 5 times and so obv lose 4 outof 5 times.....sounds clear?
So, one time you win the hand and make a profit of 4xCalling amount which is $8.
4 Times you'll lose the calling amount which totals $8.

Suppose there's a raise of $2 on the flop which makes the pot $10.
Calling there for $2 gives you 5-1 odds...invest $2 to get a $10 profit.
If you have 20% to hit your outs it means you'll win 1 outof 5 hands.
Which means 1 hand you'll profit $10, the other 4 hands you'll lose $2 each, which is $8 total, which will bring you a profit of $2 over these 5 hands.

Now suppose you're still gonna hit your outs 20% of time.
Though, now there's a flopbet of $2 making the pot $8.
In this case you have to call $ 2 to profit $8.
Your pot odds are 4-1.
Still, 1 outof 5 hands you'll hit your outs and get your profit, which is $8.
The other 4 hands you'll lose, which totals for 4 x $2 = $8.
Here we are BE, although only theoratically because rake will cost you.

Important....here I'm just talking about flops, without going into implied or reversed odds....


Oh, so I would only need 4:1 because I would win 1 in 5, so the 4:1 call is to counter the loss of the other 4 times? Is this correct?

Also, "Counter" is probably the wrong word to use, but I hope you can understand where I'm getting at.
 
steveiam

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Hey, don't get me wrong...small chance I would critisize you, but you were talking about calling UTG, which preflop is the same as limping UTG, no?

I was quoting the OP comment of calling UTG.. not what i would do myself..:)
 
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hffjd2000

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Wise question.
Preflop:
If we only know the opponent/s hand/s and we are last to act, then we can select which hand we can call base on pot odds at that point. But that is not the case.
Postflop:
Yes, card odds and pot odds must be considered both to make our call mathematically correct (not to mention another odds-implied odds).
 
dj11

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In reality, pot odds won't be involved with a UTG preflop decision. The really don't apply for any 'first to act' decision, with the exception of a BvB decision.
 
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rhombus

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Oh, so I would only need 4:1 because I would win 1 in 5, so the 4:1 call is to counter the loss of the other 4 times? Is this correct?

Also, "Counter" is probably the wrong word to use, but I hope you can understand where I'm getting at.

people get confused with odds and probabilities - 4 to 1 means for every 5 events only 1 time you will hit and 4 times you lose hence 4 to 1.
Also they then divide 100/4 and think its 25%.

4 to 1 odds is the same as 1 in 5 probability so divide 100/5 for 20%

Clear example is when the odds are evens which is 1 to 1 (proability is 1 in 2) so you actually divide 100 by 2 for 50%

in the chart below to convert Odds to probabilities and then to percentages
4 to 1 - count events(4+1) = 5 and then the probability is the right hand number 1
so 1 in 5. 1/5 = 0.2 or 20%

6 to 4 - count events(6+4) = 10 and then the probability is the right hand number 4
so 4 in 10. 4/10 = 0.4 or 40%
 

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10058765

10058765

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Oh, so I would only need 4:1 because I would win 1 in 5, so the 4:1 call is to counter the loss of the other 4 times? Is this correct?
Basically..yes, although there's a lot more to consider.....
 
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