Question About Position

TxScorpion

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Hey all...this is my first post as I'm still getting my feet wet in NLHE. Here's my question about position.

I've noticed that in several books and videos it says that position is more important than the cards in your hand. Why is that? If I'm on the button or in late position, everyone is limping into the pot and then I get 2h5h what good is that going to do for me being in position?

Should the sole purpose of being in position be to wait for premium hands (AK, KQ), pocket pairs (AA -JJ) and suited connectors? Or should I just raise in position with a trash hand and hope no one calls me?

Ok last question, in a $1/$2 NLHE game how much should I raise if I'm in position but I have a horrible hand and I just want to collect dead money (ie the blinds and limpers) without a fight?
 
micromachine

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Maybe that statement is a bit misleading. Having position is a huge advantage and you can play many more hands profitably in position, but that doesn't mean that you should be playing utter garbage hands.

If you are in position and want to steal the blinds and make limpers fold, I would raise 4BB + 1BB for every limper. But at least do it with a hand that has some chance of flopping something decent.
 
dmorris68

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Hey all...this is my first post as I'm still getting my feet wet in NLHE. Here's my question about position.
Welcome to CardsChat!

I've noticed that in several books and videos it says that position is more important than the cards in your hand. Why is that? If I'm on the button or in late position, everyone is limping into the pot and then I get 2h5h what good is that going to do for me being in position?

Should the sole purpose of being in position be to wait for premium hands (AK, KQ), pocket pairs (AA -JJ) and suited connectors? Or should I just raise in position with a trash hand and hope no one calls me?
First, since you're just learning the ropes, I would avoid playing too fancy at this point. Stick to the basic ABC style for now, just knowing you can open a little wider from position.

The term for raising with trash from late position is called "stealing the blinds." While stealing isn't exactly an advanced topic, you need to have a good idea that the blinds (and also button) fold to most raises. Otherwise you're playing bloated pots with weak hands, even if you do have position. Note that raising from position with a strong hand is not stealing, it's betting for value. So when you hear "stealing" you can interpret that to mean raising with a weak or speculative hand.

Position is so important because it gives you several advantages. Poker is a game of information, and acting last gives you the maximum amount of information on the opponents acting before you, based on their actions.

At the micro stakes, or at a table full of bad players who limp a lot, you can punish the limpers by raising with top part of your range for value, or stealing the limped pot with a wider part of your range if they're passive fish who fold to any aggression.

Acting last also lets you control the pot size, another very important aspect of poker. If you get caught stealing and someone defends their blind, you might still connect with the flop and be able to bloat the pot for value, or check behind to see a free turn card if you both miss the flop. Controlling the pot lets you get to showdown more cheaply with a marginal but likely better hand than your opponent. For instance, some people will barrel any A-high or drawing hand all the way to the river hoping to move you off your hand, or thinking their A-high has you beat. So you can play your small-medium pairs by just calling to the river if overcards or the draw never come.

If stacks are deep, you can afford to see more cheap flops with a wider range of speculative hands that have good implied odds. But playing a family pot with a lot of limpers can be dangerous to your premium hands. You ideally want to get HU or 3-way to the flop with your strong hands. Premiums like AA/KK lose some of their strength with more people in the pot when the flop doesn't improve your hand. So *never* limp your premium hands in a multi-way pot (you should rarely limp premiums anyway). Acting last gives you the opportunity to narrow the field by raising big enough to price many of the passive limpers out of the flop. The general rule of thumb here is start with your standard opening raise (let's say 3x), then add 1bb per limper.

Then there are more advanced strategies you can use from position, like floating. This is where someone raises preflop and you call from position. Most preflop raisers will consistently cbet most flops, but when you call from position they'll give up on the turn and check back to you, especially if they're passive and there are any scare cards on the board. You can often steal the pot here with any bet on the turn no matter what cards you hold. Mind you, as with any advanced move, don't try to over-apply this while you're still learning as you can get in trouble with it. I'm just pointing out some of the many ways you can use position to your advantage.

Ok last question, in a $1/$2 NLHE game how much should I raise if I'm in position but I have a horrible hand and I just want to collect dead money (ie the blinds and limpers) without a fight?
In general, bet sizing should not vary based on hand strength, otherwise you'll be easily exploited by thinking players who will raise you off your poor hands and fold to your big hands. Bet the same amount for a steal attempt as you would a value raise with a strong hand.

Since you mention 200NL and you're just learning, I assume this means you're playing live (if you're trying to play 200NL online, move down!). Live games play out quite differently than online, namely there's usually a lot more limping and getting to showdown than there is online. Online games are generally much tougher at similar stakes. 200NL live is roughly equivalent to 10NL or so online.
 
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cotta777

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well with position you always have an advantage its like putting your opponent on the back foot,
it forces people to make more errors as they are first to act especially if they like to play aggressive.
and if they are passive they will almost always check a weak hand and absoloutely never re-raise you.

it makes your life easier and taking down the pot easier. as you can use the information you have to make your decision.

your far less likely to run into a bad hand if you always play strong in position and listen to the information you have from that hand and from the player in general,

in general a hand like J9 suited might look nice or Q10 out of position, but when you miss those hands or hit and your dominated your going to get into alot of problems and its a huge leak in your game long term
 
ScottieDuncan

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dmorris68 says it all. Very good synopsis.
 
TxScorpion

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Welcome to CardsChat!


First, since you're just learning the ropes, I would avoid playing too fancy at this point. Stick to the basic ABC style for now, just knowing you can open a little wider from position.

The term for raising with trash from late position is called "stealing the blinds." While stealing isn't exactly an advanced topic, you need to have a good idea that the blinds (and also button) fold to most raises. Otherwise you're playing bloated pots with weak hands, even if you do have position. Note that raising from position with a strong hand is not stealing, it's betting for value. So when you hear "stealing" you can interpret that to mean raising with a weak or speculative hand.

Position is so important because it gives you several advantages. Poker is a game of information, and acting last gives you the maximum amount of information on the opponents acting before you, based on their actions.

At the micro stakes, or at a table full of bad players who limp a lot, you can punish the limpers by raising with top part of your range for value, or stealing the limped pot with a wider part of your range if they're passive fish who fold to any aggression.

Acting last also lets you control the pot size, another very important aspect of poker. If you get caught stealing and someone defends their blind, you might still connect with the flop and be able to bloat the pot for value, or check behind to see a free turn card if you both miss the flop. Controlling the pot lets you get to showdown more cheaply with a marginal but likely better hand than your opponent. For instance, some people will barrel any A-high or drawing hand all the way to the river hoping to move you off your hand, or thinking their A-high has you beat. So you can play your small-medium pairs by just calling to the river if overcards or the draw never come.

If stacks are deep, you can afford to see more cheap flops with a wider range of speculative hands that have good implied odds. But playing a family pot with a lot of limpers can be dangerous to your premium hands. You ideally want to get HU or 3-way to the flop with your strong hands. Premiums like AA/KK lose some of their strength with more people in the pot when the flop doesn't improve your hand. So *never* limp your premium hands in a multi-way pot (you should rarely limp premiums anyway). Acting last gives you the opportunity to narrow the field by raising big enough to price many of the passive limpers out of the flop. The general rule of thumb here is start with your standard opening raise (let's say 3x), then add 1bb per limper.

Then there are more advanced strategies you can use from position, like floating. This is where someone raises preflop and you call from position. Most preflop raisers will consistently cbet most flops, but when you call from position they'll give up on the turn and check back to you, especially if they're passive and there are any scare cards on the board. You can often steal the pot here with any bet on the turn no matter what cards you hold. Mind you, as with any advanced move, don't try to over-apply this while you're still learning as you can get in trouble with it. I'm just pointing out some of the many ways you can use position to your advantage.


In general, bet sizing should not vary based on hand strength, otherwise you'll be easily exploited by thinking players who will raise you off your poor hands and fold to your big hands. Bet the same amount for a steal attempt as you would a value raise with a strong hand. Since you mention 200NL and you're just learning, I assume this means you're playing live (if you're trying to play 200NL online, move down!). Live games play out quite differently than online, namely there's usually a lot more limping and getting to showdown than there is online. Online games are generally much tougher at similar stakes. 200NL live is roughly equivalent to 10NL or so online.

Great advice dmorris68!! I'm definitely going to take advantage of this information.

Yes right now I'm only playing $1/$2 NL in live games at the casinos. I "practice" strategy on pokerstars but with guys winning hands with 93o it's hard to tell if the plays that I am making are correct or if it's just the luck of the draw. I've definitely seen alot of limping into pots at the live games and that's why I wanted to get some advice on how to take advantage of this situation and make a small profit along the way.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Great advice dmorris68!! I'm definitely going to take advantage of this information.

Yes right now I'm only playing $1/$2 NL in live games at the casinos. I "practice" strategy on PokerStars but with guys winning hands with 93o it's hard to tell if the plays that I am making are correct or if it's just the luck of the draw. I've definitely seen alot of limping into pots at the live games and that's why I wanted to get some advice on how to take advantage of this situation and make a small profit along the way.


Live plays quite a bit different than online

Players will be really really bad live.

Solid ABC tight strategy works well live.


Such as:

Early position hands to raise with:
A-Qo +, 10-10+

Early position limping:
PPs 2-2~9-9, K-Qs, K-Js, A-Js

MP raising hands:
K-Js +, 9-9+

LP raising hands:
SCs 10-J+, A-10+, PPs 7-7+, Q-Jo, K-Jo, K-Qo, various connectors and one-gappers (suited) depending on who is in pot already.

EP folds for full ring live (UTG)
K-Qo, K-Jo, Q-Jo, Q-10, J-10o, A-rag, Suited aces, suited kings, pretty much anything that isn't a premium hand.

And fold your SB unless you have A-Q+ or a PP. Even if it is only a dollar, fold all hands unless premiums.


This is not a complete list. Just somewhat of a guideline of how I would play ABC at a 10-seat table. Just food for thought. Dynamics, villains, and a variety of other factors can change the way I may play live.


Tight is right, and position is very very important. I play very tight live, and it seems to be what works the best of all styles (for me).

There will be a lot of players who think at the most basic levels at live tables. They are not folding to some fancy bluff, and they don't really understand hand requirements or position.

Edit: this list is assuming you have 100BBs to work with. If you are really deep, you can play a wider range see more flops IP.
 
TxScorpion

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So far, this is how I have been playing the majority of my hands. The only problem I've been seeing so far (I'm pretty sure there are others that I don't see) is the urge to play certain cards out of position. For example, I had Qs5s out of position (its still a trash hand regardless if its suited and I'm in position correct?) and flop hits 6sJs9s!! Uggggghhh!!
 
TxScorpion

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Live plays quite a bit different than online

This list is assuming you have 100BBs to work with. If you are really deep, you can play a wider range see more flops IP.

100BBs is my normal starting stack. I was told that Day One when I started playing live.
 
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So far, this is how I have been playing the majority of my hands. The only problem I've been seeing so far (I'm pretty sure there are others that I don't see) is the urge to play certain cards out of position. For example, I had Qs5s out of position (its still a trash hand regardless if its suited and I'm in position correct?) and flop hits 6sJs9s!! Uggggghhh!!

In general I fold Q5 UTG sometimes even Q10, but its more about the players at the table and if your in a cash game or a tournament,

If im gonna play something like Q5 suited we want a respectable tight/solid image out of position you can 3-bet a standard raise to take initiative of the
pot, either taking it down or -

if you hit a King or Ace on the board you can rep this with a C-bet and obviously if you hit a Queen as top pair or your flush draw, you have real hand equity.
its important not to do this if you are playing alot of hands, but I dont see the harm in re-popping Q5 with the intention of repping the premium section of board aswell as any of your real hands, just be careful who you choose to 3-bet
 
micromachine

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I had Qs5s out of position (its still a trash hand regardless if its suited and I'm in position correct?) and flop hits 6sJs9s!! Uggggghhh!!


Correct, snap fold that crap OOP
 
dmorris68

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Correct, snap fold that crap OOP
This.

And until you're playing at a higher level, fold it in position too unless it's a multi-way limped pot that lets you see a cheap flop. However you're setting yourself up for difficult decisions post-flop. What will you do on a Q high board? You're easily dominated with your TPNK. Many beginners struggle to fold those, and spew lots of chips in the process.

Never *ever* look at the flop after a fold and kick yourself for not calling. This is called being results oriented, and is something you should never do. It was a good fold, especially OOP, regardless of what cards might be dealt. Aside from that, online it's even more pointless to consider, because outside of Pokerstars, the cards are continuously shuffled so the cards that come when you call won't be the same cards that come when you fold.
 
SANDYHOOKER KY

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Listen to dmorris, he's got it down. Being in 'position' gives you an advantage, that's all. You get to see what the other players are doing before you have to act, also lets you limp in a pot with marginal cards if the odds to call are great. If you have a tight table image, and you do get in the fray, being last to act can sometimes get you a free card because the other players will be afraid to do anything, short of having a monster hand they will see what YOU do, and being last to act gives you opportunities to 'steal' too. After awhile you'll learn the art of stealing pots, hehe there's nothing like stealing a big pot from the 'big guns'. But watch out, some savvy players will steal back.:boxing:
 
Mr Sandbag

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Position is everything, but you should still fold trash from the button. Too many cash players see position as an obligation to play a hand or win a pot, but it's not. It's just extremely valuable leverage that helps determine how to play a hand that you want.

And just a tip: in 1/2 (especially live), you shouldn't really be thinking about stealing blinds. You'd be surprised how rarely it works, and it is bound to get you into trouble with a crap hand. Blind-stealing is a necessity in tournaments because of the rising blinds, but in cash we have the luxury of being patient and waiting for an opportunity to exploit mistakes and make money.
 
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And just a tip: in 1/2 (especially live), you shouldn't really be thinking about stealing blinds. You'd be surprised how rarely it works, and it is bound to get you into trouble with a crap hand. Blind-stealing is a necessity in tournaments because of the rising blinds, but in cash we have the luxury of being patient and waiting for an opportunity to exploit mistakes and make money.

+1. Cash games and tournaments play differently with this scenario. In a cash game, you can afford to wait for a hand and if you end up busting, the option to re-buy more chips is offered.

Because the blinds and antes are high in mid to late stages of the tournament, you will need to pick up as much chips as possible to stay afloat and prevent being blinded off
 
TxScorpion

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This.

You're easily dominated with your TPNK. Many beginners struggle to fold those, and spew lots of chips in the process.

What TPNK stand for? Top pair, no kicker?
 
scorpion1367

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Sorry D I figured you covered the topic so well yes was the only thing I could add didn't see you had already answered.......scorp
 
hobonc

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And until you're playing at a higher level, fold it in position too unless it's a multi-way limped pot that lets you see a cheap flop.

This^

Play the multi-way hand because you'll have some good pot odds for a call here, plus there will be implied odds should your flush hit and also give someone TPTK or 2 pair. If it is a dry flop then you'll have the position importance kicking in and you can see what action comes and make the next decision accordingly.
 
TxScorpion

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Well I took all the advice you guys suggested and went to play a session at the casino. It was actually a mixed results session as I broke even moneywise but played several hands either poorly or not nearly as aggressive as I should have. As far as position goes, I did get several hands where I had As7d and promptly tossed it into the muck. I did however get AdKd and flopped the nut flush...damn shame I couldn't get any action though...only well
 
NeverEnough

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Maybe that statement is a bit misleading. Having position is a huge advantage and you can play many more hands profitably in position, but that doesn't mean that you should be playing utter garbage hands.

If you are in position and want to steal the blinds and make limpers fold, I would raise 4BB + 1BB for every limper. But at least do it with a hand that has some chance of flopping something decent.
Is tossing in that many BBs profitable just to steal, though?
 
NeverEnough

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Live plays quite a bit different than online

Players will be really really bad live.

Solid ABC tight strategy works well live.


Such as:

Early position hands to raise with:
A-Qo +, 10-10+

Early position limping:
PPs 2-2~9-9, K-Qs, K-Js, A-Js

MP raising hands:
K-Js +, 9-9+

LP raising hands:
SCs 10-J+, A-10+, PPs 7-7+, Q-Jo, K-Jo, K-Qo, various connectors and one-gappers (suited) depending on who is in pot already.

EP folds for full ring live (UTG)
K-Qo, K-Jo, Q-Jo, Q-10, J-10o, A-rag, Suited aces, suited kings, pretty much anything that isn't a premium hand.

And fold your SB unless you have A-Q+ or a PP. Even if it is only a dollar, fold all hands unless premiums.


This is not a complete list. Just somewhat of a guideline of how I would play ABC at a 10-seat table. Just food for thought. Dynamics, villains, and a variety of other factors can change the way I may play live.


Tight is right, and position is very very important. I play very tight live, and it seems to be what works the best of all styles (for me).

There will be a lot of players who think at the most basic levels at live tables. They are not folding to some fancy bluff, and they don't really understand hand requirements or position.

Edit: this list is assuming you have 100BBs to work with. If you are really deep, you can play a wider range see more flops IP.
I am a live player & also very tight, but damn you are suggesting player too tight IMO.
 
Mr Sandbag

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I am a live player & also very tight, but damn you are suggesting player too tight IMO.

No way. 1/2 players are so loose and clueless that you can pretty much wait around all night for big hands and get a ton of value out of them.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I am a live player & also very tight, but damn you are suggesting player too tight IMO.

Less pots = less variance.

Less variance= less tilt.


However this is just a guide, just a starting point for an inexperienced player to try to adhere to.

For example, if you are limping hands like Q-Jo (or raising them) UTG at a 10 seat table, trouble awaits.

Furthermore, if a player doesn't have the patience and control to play this "tight", live cash games will be tough.

These are FR 10 spot tables. If you limp UTG, you will have 7 players behind you, who have position on you. It ain't friggin 6-max.


Anyway, it was just a starting point. A suggestion so that the OP can hone his game.
 
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