QTip on the value of c-betting

In this latest video, QTip (Owen Gaines), coach from DragTheBar looks at the situation where we're opening in late position and the expectation of different lines in demonstrating the value of cbetting. Its a part of his "NLHE Treasures Chest" series found at DTB.

Owen has joined Cardschat recently and been posting under the screen name QTipDTB. He will be available to respond to questions you may have in this thread. Welcome and thanks to him...enjoy the videos.

(after watching them, be sure to take advantage of the 7 day trial at DTB)

Part 1
YouTube - QTip No-Limit Hold'em Treasure Chest Part 4 (Video 1)
Part 2
YouTube - QTip No-Limit Hold'em Treasure Chest Part 4 (Video 2)
Part 3
YouTube - QTip No-Limit Hold'em Treasure Chest Part 4 (Video 3)

Also from our friends at DTB...

Chipsteela/EndlessJ Wins the Sunday Million

Zerosum79 Discusses the ABC's of Playing SNG's

GiantBuddah's Hand of the Day

BeachJustice on Overbet Bluffs

Ask Mental Game Coach Jared Tendler

Ask Me Anything (Dusty Schmidt aka Leatherass in the well)

Really good series Owen, thanks for sharing with us here at CC.

How would you apply this to later streets, specifically the river? I ask because I just gave the "don't turn your hand into a bluff on the river" argument in another thread, lol, I do think it's different than the flop, plus it was a SNG, but still wanted to hear your thoughts on it.

cjatud2012 said:

Really good series Owen, thanks for sharing with us here at CC.

How would you apply this to later streets, specifically the river? I ask because I just gave the "don't turn your hand into a bluff on the river" argument in another thread, lol, I do think it's different than the flop, plus it was a SNG, but still wanted to hear your thoughts on it.

Click to expand...

Hi. Perhaps you could link that other thread because I've not seen it (I don't play sngs.)

The river is a simpler streett since (outside of a chop) one player has 100% equity. "Don't turn your hand into a bluff on the river" seems like extremely overly simplistic thinking, so I'll reserve my comments until I can address the specific thought process there. Suffice it to say, if you're value-betting a hand, you do need your opponent to call with > 50% more worse hands than better hands (assuming he never raises as a bluff). Otherwise we need to explore other options to find the most +EV play.

Sure thing: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/learning-poker-57/ak-2-stt-183525/

My post is #5. Our hero raises a preflop limper from late position, who calls. Hero then c-bets a QT5 flop with two diamonds, and villain calls. The turn hits a 3c, and we check after being checked to. The river brings the ace of spaces, and in the hand, villain leads the river for the size of the pot. I then asked the question what would we do if he had again checked?

I suppose it would be good to also ask how you think we should adjust if we had something like AQ on that same QT5 flop (might be a simple answer but I still think it's worth asking).

cjatud2012 said:

Sure thing: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/learning-poker-57/ak-2-stt-183525/

My post is #5. Our hero raises a preflop limper from late position, who calls. Hero then c-bets a QT5 flop with two diamonds, and villain calls. The turn hits a 3c, and we check after being checked to. The river brings the ace of spaces, and in the hand, villain leads the river for the size of the pot. I then asked the question what would we do if he had again checked?

Click to expand...

Well, this isn't the type of question that can simply be answered with a bet, check or w/e. (I want to add a caveat here since I've not spent time with ICM to determine if/how mathematical analysis of situations change in tournaments/sngs.) I have a free video at DTB called The 2 Keys to Good Poker. You can find it here:

http://www.dragthebar.com/poker-videos/viewer.php?id=86

I also talk about this a fair amount in my book Poker Math That Matters. The first key is accurate assumptions. We have to make assumptions about our opponent's strategy which includes what his range is and what decisions he'll make with that range. When you're on the river in this hand, you have to think about what % of his range will call different sized bets compared to which will fold. If you can get an opponent to call with worse hands > than 50% of the time he calls with better, then you have a value bet to make. (This again is assuming your opponent never c/r bluffs you). If you assume this to be false, than you check since there's no value in a bet. Your assumptions will change with different types of villains. Loose and sticky villains will have many weaker hands than you and are likely to call with more of them. This allows us to value bet much thinner than against better players. The extreme nut peddlers who will only call with top two or better on a board like this, you obviously need a much stronger hand to value bet and your tptk is not one of them. There are many different assumptions we can make. Your ability to make accurate assumptions about the villain's strategy will take time and experience.

This is why we can't just look at a hand and say "Bet!". We need to have some assumptions to work with before we begin to mathematically decide what bet/bet size produces the highest amount of EV.

cjatud2012 said:

I suppose it would be good to also ask how you think we should adjust if we had something like AQ on that same QT5 flop (might be a simple answer but I still think it's worth asking).

Click to expand...

It's a fine question, and again starts with our assumptions about the opponent's strategy There are also other facts that include things like our SPR and our image. Most of the time on this flop if I'm not ridiculously deep, I'll be betting the flop with the idea of building the pot in a way that allows me to chunk in the effective stack by the river.

Good explanations. May I ask what kind of software is used in the video? Would you maybe have any recommendations for a similar software accessible to a serious beginner . Thanks

Hi Krk. There used to be a couple options with this, but PokerRazor got bought up like a year ago, and the software was taken down. They talked about a release of a new version, but it's nowhere in site at this point.

The only option at this point is StoxEV. It is a very powerful piece of software, but with this comes a pretty heavy learning curve that will take a fair amount of time and dedication to learn to use well. Having said that, I do love the software.

Thanks. That will be exactly what I was looking for although you're right that it will probably take some time to get used to.
Interestingly it seems like not only Poker razor has been bought up but the StoxEV may have been bought by some training site as well. Normal download is still avalable though.