Putting people on a range?

L

lukeellul92

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Total posts
362
Chips
0
So, today I had a very interesting discussion with someone who gave me some pointers, and he bought up "ranges". Now, I usually if I play alot of hands with someone I find it easy to put them on a range that they'd play.
However tonight, in our Monday night NLHE tourney at the casino here, Out of the first 1hr20min of play, we saw showdown a total of 3 times, so I only saw hands 3 times, everyone else was folding.

I found it very hard to put people on a range at this point, even trying to utilize the community cards and betting patterns I still found it hard.

Has anyone got any advice in this department? I feel I need to study this to take my game to a higher level.
 
Marcwantstowin

Marcwantstowin

Member of the T.S.T
Moderator
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Total posts
16,504
Awards
18
GB
Chips
380
Hi Luke.

As you rightly say it would be very difficult to put people on a range when you only see 3 showdowns. However, I would say by watching how people bet on the flop, turn and river may also give you some insight. Also by knowing what cards you have, watching betting patterns, and then perhaps by isolating an opponent through your aggression and seeing how they react may also help you.

This I hope is something you can try to learn and develop. I would suggest you try this technique, which will take some time for you to master and hopefully help with your analysis.

That's the beauty of poker, you can always continue to develop yourself and improve your play. I hope this helps you and wish you gl in the future. :D:D:D
 
H

hffjd2000

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Total posts
2,329
Chips
0
Putting people on range is just one strategy in poker.

So much to consider like betting patterns, tells, psychology, etc.

But what I know for live poker, its a game more on people and less on cards.
 
TeUnit

TeUnit

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Total posts
4,734
Awards
14
Chips
77
online you can just look at the hud if you have one, but live I try to make a mental hud ie that guy is playing like 60 10 or she is playing 12 5- then i think its a bit easier to back into how you think they are going to play

one problem with this approach is the sample size is usually not going to be significant ie the guy you think is playing 60 10 could just have got a bunch of low pairs in early position etc
 
L

lukeellul92

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Total posts
362
Chips
0
online you can just look at the hud if you have one, but live I try to make a mental hud ie that guy is playing like 60 10 or she is playing 12 5- then i think its a bit easier to back into how you think they are going to play

one problem with this approach is the sample size is usually not going to be significant ie the guy you think is playing 60 10 could just have got a bunch of low pairs in early position etc

I appreciate everyones answers!


This one however confused me, what do you mean by 60 10 and 12 5 etc? I don't use a hud online either so yeah, I play purely live.
 
EvertonGirl

EvertonGirl

Professional Fish
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Total posts
8,421
Awards
3
GB
Chips
99
I appreciate everyones answers!


This one however confused me, what do you mean by 60 10 and 12 5 etc? I don't use a hud online either so yeah, I play purely live.

When you have a hud it tells you who is playing tight or who is playing loose. The 60 10 i assume is VPIP (voluntarily puts into pot) 60 and PRF (pre flop raise) 10 and the other player is VPIP 12 and PFR is 5.
 
L

lukeellul92

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Total posts
362
Chips
0
When you have a hud it tells you who is playing tight or who is playing loose. The 60 10 i assume is VPIP (voluntarily puts into pot) 60 and PRF (pre flop raise) 10 and the other player is VPIP 12 and PFR is 5.

is this in %? So he puts into the pot voluntarily %60 of the time and raises preflop %10 of the time?
 
L

lukeellul92

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Total posts
362
Chips
0
Yea thats correct!

Sweet, so in live games I should count the total number of hands being dealt roughly in an hour and try and figure out how many my opponents are playing to figure out their style? Would this be a good way to determine things? Or is this going to quickly make my head explode?
 
M

mrgiggitygoo

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 6, 2014
Total posts
6
Chips
0
No

Sweet, so in live games I should count the total number of hands being dealt roughly in an hour and try and figure out how many my opponents are playing to figure out their style? Would this be a good way to determine things? Or is this going to quickly make my head explode?
No, it shouldn't help your head explode, but overthinking will. Keep it simple, just factor who is playing lots, who is plying premiums only (not so often) and monitor you're own playing style...if you're playing the most then try to reign it in where possible, minimise you're own risk.

After all said and done, you could deal a 100 hands and the hand will come out differently, so trying to work everybody out all of the time is a non starter....
 
EvertonGirl

EvertonGirl

Professional Fish
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Total posts
8,421
Awards
3
GB
Chips
99
Sweet, so in live games I should count the total number of hands being dealt roughly in an hour and try and figure out how many my opponents are playing to figure out their style? Would this be a good way to determine things? Or is this going to quickly make my head explode?

Your head will explode if you overthink like I do, like MrGig says just keep track on how certain people bet and how often a certain persons 3bets. Hopefully you will get a few extra info @SD when you see what villain 3bets with. Remember to always check what your opponents are ORing or 3betting with in certain positions, you may catch a fish UTG raising with marginal hands and donking off their chips.
 
G

GreatLeslie

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Total posts
165
Chips
0
Putting someone on a range is the most difficult thing in poker, and if it was easy you'd be winning many more pots. One way to determine someone's range is to just get a feeling of how many times they enter a pot. If you see someone limp 6 times in a row you can be pretty sure they are playing more looser than everyone else on the table and this can at times give you a good idea of their range but you really need to sit down with them for a good hour or so.
 
B

bluejay2220

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Total posts
127
Chips
0
You know, when I need info on a player and rarely see his cards, I will call a pot just to see what he is holding. Usually its worth it, sometimes I even win with just high cards.
 
R

rhombus

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Total posts
2,601
Chips
0
Try here for live Hud guide
http://redchippoker.com/using-a-hud-for-live-poker/
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 4, 2012
Total posts
1,190
Chips
0
So, today I had a very interesting discussion with someone who gave me some pointers, and he bought up "ranges". Now, I usually if I play alot of hands with someone I find it easy to put them on a range that they'd play.
However tonight, in our Monday night NLHE tourney at the casino here, Out of the first 1hr20min of play, we saw showdown a total of 3 times, so I only saw hands 3 times, everyone else was folding.

I found it very hard to put people on a range at this point, even trying to utilize the community cards and betting patterns I still found it hard.

Has anyone got any advice in this department? I feel I need to study this to take my game to a higher level.

Start with what type of player the villain is...the tighter the player, the less possible hands he might have to begin with.

Think about a hand where you raise in middle position and a villain calls out of the SB.

A tightish player simply won't have that many hands possible at all"

QKss
AJ
AJss
A10ss
1010-22

etc. etc...

Then later on in the hand you use his play to narrot down even more.

So use player type, player position and table dynamics to put player's on ranges.

You don't need to see a ton of hands shown down necessarily; obviously it would help.

I wouldn't even categorize MOST players before 20-30 hands in....don't extrapolate a whole profile from 3 hands someone plays in the span of a 5 hand sample...that's what a lot of donks do.
 
PokerSprout

PokerSprout

Rising Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 10, 2015
Total posts
15
Chips
0
So, today I had a very interesting discussion with someone who gave me some pointers, and he bought up "ranges". Now, I usually if I play alot of hands with someone I find it easy to put them on a range that they'd play.
However tonight, in our Monday night NLHE tourney at the casino here, Out of the first 1hr20min of play, we saw showdown a total of 3 times, so I only saw hands 3 times, everyone else was folding.

I found it very hard to put people on a range at this point, even trying to utilize the community cards and betting patterns I still found it hard.

Has anyone got any advice in this department? I feel I need to study this to take my game to a higher level.

Hey Luke, we have actually released a video series about this topic at PokerSprout.com on our pre-launch page. Mods feel free to edit if need be.

Essentially, what happens is that you must rely on a combination of Bayesian inference and game theory to make your decisions when you lack more direct information like hands shown down.

Simply put, if everyone is folding extremely often pre-flop, then you know that a pre-flop raising opponent is more likely to have a hand like AA. So if the board falls T:spade:9:spade:6:heart: and an earlier position player bets into you, you may have identified a great spot for a bluff raise where you "know" (based on recent history of NOT seeing showdowns) that your opponent is more likely to be big pair heavy, and not have as many hands like T9, TT, 99, 66 or 87s as you do.

Hope that helps some. The video series should help worlds more and say more than I could type here!
 
I

ilostmysoul

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 1, 2015
Total posts
228
Chips
0
Putting people on range is just one strategy in poker.

So much to consider like betting patterns, tells, psychology, etc.

But what I know for live poker, its a game more on people and less on cards.

Care that even when you focus on the peop,e(like you said, patterns, tells, psychology, etc), you are still trying to get to their range. For example, "They tend to only raise preflop with premium hands, but now I can see they are on tilt, so maybe they are also raising with suitted connectors and any AXs". NLHE is basically a range war, and most of the people-focused strategies are aimed to get to the range. Of course, there are some opponent-focused strategy, like bluffing, that depend more on the person, but even those are highly dependent on their range as well (you can't expect them to fold a high flush into your bluff, for example).

As far as the original question, I wish I could answer but I also have some troubles with that. Everyone else above gave pretty good answers, and I can only learn from them :) reading ranges is crucial in poker, but it takes a lot of effort. Start by profilling the player in general (tight, loose, etc) and give him a bunch of hands based on that (ex, how many times does he play preflop? If he plays 25% or so, he's playing KQ, AJ+, JJ+, ATs or so. A poker software like Equilab lets you sellect the hands and see the % they show. Then as the hand progresses you analyze the betting patterns and start eliminating some hands (ex. If he doesn't raise, he probably doesn't have AA, AK, QQ, KK. If he doesn't bet/raise on a JK6 flop, he doesn't have JJ, etc. Of course this depends on his p,aying style too (he could have JJ and be slowplaying; you need to take into account if he's and opponent willing to do that).
It's a skill though, and it requires lots and lots of practise. Be sure to keep trying to read ranges even when you're not in the hand :)

@EvertonGirk: Care that I think you read the 60/10 wrong. In theory books 60/10 is used as the most basic stats: VPIP and AF, assuming VPIP also includes 3bet preflop and calling then folding to a raise. In most theory books they used these to profile their opponents, because it shows how many hands they tend to play and how aggresive they are with them, which allows you to say they are a fish, TAG, LAG, etc :)
 
Fknife

Fknife

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Total posts
1,128
Chips
0
@EvertonGirk: Care that I think you read the 60/10 wrong. In theory books 60/10 is used as the most basic stats: VPIP and AF, assuming VPIP also includes 3bet preflop and calling then folding to a raise. In most theory books they used these to profile their opponents, because it shows how many hands they tend to play and how aggresive they are with them, which allows you to say they are a fish, TAG, LAG, etc :)

Naah, I'm pretty sure it's what she said it was (VPIP/PFR). AF is a pretty useless stat anyway so...
 
I

ilostmysoul

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 1, 2015
Total posts
228
Chips
0
Naah, I'm pretty sure it's what she said it was (VPIP/PFR). AF is a pretty useless stat anyway so...

Yea true I was wrong :p but couldn't edit the post on a mobile.
 
Top