Problem with Micro stakes, good play - bad results

Fknife

Fknife

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Total posts
1,128
Chips
0
Hello

Im new here and this is my first post on this forum so...hello everyone. So I have started playing poker about 2 weeks ago, read quite a bit about it but it seems that I can't make any profit playing it. I mean, at first I was losing pretty much every time. Now, during one session I make ... like 3 dollars but next session I lose it etc.
I try to play like everyone is suggesting on micro stakes. I play rather tight, try to be aggressive with good starting hands, 3bet sometimes, valuebet with nuts etc. I am aware of pot odds, outs etc (I've even written a simple program to calculate EV, odds etc for me).
What do you guys suggest to increase my winning rate? I only play one (sometimes two) table, so maybe this is the problem.

And by the way, here are my stats from my last session (from HM2):

VP : 31 %
PFR : 19 %
ST : 30,0 %
3B : 7,1 %
CB : 63,6 %
FCB : -
WTSD: 16.7 %
W$SD: 50 %
AG : 42,0 %
F3B : -

They are not that bad, right? :)

Thanks
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
One session isn't enough from which to draw statistically significant conclusions. With that caveat in mind, the gap between you vpip and pfr is much wider than good players typically have. They should be more like 2-3 points apart. Yours aren't because you limp and/or call more than 1/3 of the time you enter a pot. And 31 vpip is not tight. 17-20 would be tight. Rocky play would be even less than that.
 
Fknife

Fknife

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Total posts
1,128
Chips
0
Ok, I know that one session stats are not significant but I've just started and all of my previous sessions are pretty much terrible so I guess it would not change anything if I did post them -> I already know they are bad :) So you suggest playing even tighter...ok I can do that :) But is it that good to play like a Rock? People will know that when you enter the pot, you have premium hands, so they will fold - at least I do that when I see that kind of player raising, after 20 minutes of folding...
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
Playing tight and being a nit are two different things. As said, 31% VPIP in a 9-handed micro stakes game is not at all tight. You can tighten up a long way before you get into nit territory. And yeah, stop limp/calling as much. Also, sample size, etc.

Until you gain the skills to outplay most players postflop -- and you won't for some time if you've just been playing 2 weeks -- then the general rule is to tighten up more in a loose game, and loosen up in a tight game. Play the opposite of everyone else. Since this is micros, it's generally going to be a loose game so tighten up.
 
S

sillymunchie

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
Total posts
618
Chips
0
remember an important aspect of what people are telling you
playing too tight is always bad
but as arjonius mentioned 31 vpip is not tight at all
i think it should be about 13 vpip in a full ring table
but against a tight table it should be higher then this

the reason they suggest playing so tight is because most players will get involved with lots of pots and overplay there hands, as a result by sitting tight you can see who is overplaying middle pair, who is overplaying TPTK, and then when you have a hand that can combat this, you let them do the hardwork
you have AK, you raise big pre, you hit your ace, you raise, get reraised, you re raise again and they shove, your probably behind, but again this is situational, and after 1 session you cant really have situational reads so just keep playing, figuring out what type of opponents your against, and the best way to combat the opponent type
 
Fknife

Fknife

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Total posts
1,128
Chips
0
Alright, thanks for suggestions guys. I really thought I play tight but I guess I was wrong :) I'll work on that, maybe this was the main reason I was failing at poker.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
People will know that when you enter the pot, you have premium hands, so they will fold - at least I do that when I see that kind of player raising, after 20 minutes of folding...
At micro-stakes, don't assume people actually pay attention to your play AND adjust appropriately until they've shown you they do. It's opponent-dependent of course, but not particularly uncommon to find that most at a given table aren't capable of doing both. For example, you'll find lots of people who seldom resist the urge to limp then call a raise with a small pair, suited connectors, etc. Even if they noticed you folded the last 25 hands, which isn't a given, they'll still try to flop big.
 
H

HooDooKoo

Visionary
Platinum Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Total posts
985
Chips
0
playing too tight is always bad

IMO, this is VERY poor advice for a player of OP's experience/success.

Playing too tight is not always bad, especially for beginning/losing players --- especially since most beginning players lose because they are too loose and bluff too often. Furthermore, few micro players are skilled enough to recognize nits and play back at them.

It is MUCH worse for inexperienced/beginning players to play too loose than it is for them to play too tight, as they generally lack the postflop skills to make loose play profitable.

-HooDooKoo
 
Raving Lunatic

Raving Lunatic

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 27, 2013
Total posts
55
Chips
0
What I can say is I usually get in at least the top three when I play really tight and my way of figuring out whether or not I should play a hand is if I get the hand would I bet at least 3 times the big blind. I am not saying I would bet that much right off I just ask myself would I. If I would not I drop that hand really quick and in hurry.
 
Fahrenheit451

Fahrenheit451

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Total posts
222
Awards
1
Chips
0
IMO, this is VERY poor advice for a player of OP's experience/success.

Playing too tight is not always bad, especially for beginning/losing players --- especially since most beginning players lose because they are too loose and bluff too often. Furthermore, few micro players are skilled enough to recognize nits and play back at them.

It is MUCH worse for inexperienced/beginning players to play too loose than it is for them to play too tight, as they generally lack the postflop skills to make loose play profitable.

-HooDooKoo

Playing too tight has it's benefits:
1) you loose slowly
2) only skill you need is ability to see if you have picture pair ;)
3) you have lots of time to practice, observe, train patience & discipline, learn and add some new skills gradually.

All this helps to avoid being overwhelmed by information as a novice, BUT you can't expect profit playing as nit.
Which IMO shouldn't be prime objective at the beginning.
 
sam1chips

sam1chips

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Total posts
800
Chips
0
I had a lot of success by playing extremely tight in the $0.02/$0.05 cash games on Bovada. I feel like you get paid off on almost every one of your big hands, and there is close to no value in bluffing in the 0.02/0.05 games, as a lot of players will struggle to fold to raises.

For a beginner, I would absolutely suggest playing tight.
 
steveiam

steveiam

CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Total posts
3,625
Chips
0
Tight is right,,and ideally you always want to be the aggressor when entering a pot.
 
DrazaFFT

DrazaFFT

public static void
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Total posts
6,188
Chips
0
Playing tight is not bad, but beginners have habit of also being passive without even knowing it, now that is the problem, so be tight as much as you want but the hands you decide to play play them aggressive..

Of curse that this is lot easier than done, i always considered myself as a tight/aggressive but my tracking showed to me that i have problem of being to passive pre flop Vp$ip 15 PFR 8 AGG factor (which i dont know what it is) 1.57. plus i have bad habit of limping into limped pot or calling a raise from late positions
 
Fahrenheit451

Fahrenheit451

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Total posts
222
Awards
1
Chips
0
I had a lot of success by playing extremely tight in the $0.02/$0.05 cash games on Bovada. I feel like you get paid off on almost every one of your big hands, and there is close to no value in bluffing in the 0.02/0.05 games, as a lot of players will struggle to fold to raises.

For a beginner, I would absolutely suggest playing tight.

I tried playing tight micro level LH on PS. It was 2 months ago and I was only starting to learn poker.
Results were frustrating - by the time I finally got my premium hand all maniacs were out and no one call/raise so blinds eat up all my winnings and more.
Some days I was siting for 4-5 hours and only 2 - 3 decent hands were dealt.
Sometimes I lost big pots with my AK All In, went on tilt and lost more ;)

All in all - it was extremely boring, partly because there was full of multitablers who also played TAG, but were more experienced. Every time fresh maniac appeared at the table, multitablers swarmed in and eat him up before I could get my premium pair ;)

Finally I lost my 30$ roll there and now I'm only play some freeroll occasionally there.
I don't regret this time - I learned patience, self control and basic framework from which to move on. :shakehand

Now I play 10 player SNG at 770 and its much more interesting, safe for my BR and I can incorporate every new thing I learn into game immediately.

May be if I switch to cash games eventually, I will start out playing nit :hmmmm:
 
Fknife

Fknife

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Total posts
1,128
Chips
0
So you guys suggested I should tighten up and I did. I dropped my VP down to about 19%, my PFR is close to VP and it seems to work - at least I lose less money. But what's next? What is a good postflop strategy on micro stakes? I guess Continuation Bet of 1/2 of a pot is a standard, even though it seems some people just dont pay attention to it and call it everytime... Check-Raise, Float Play - are they effective on that stakes?

I read/learn so many new things everyday but I guess they are all designed against higher level players who think.
 
Last edited:
DrazaFFT

DrazaFFT

public static void
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Total posts
6,188
Chips
0
yea post flop is where is the problem for most beginner players, lucky for you most people that stick around micros are either beginners or players who don't do anything to improve them self, for this part of the game i would recommend little green book if you haven't read it yet and also John A free e-book that you can find at cash game section.

If you want i can brief you how i see it and do it post flop just to see how some way of thinking can look...

im playing now and i cant write to long, if i wasn't playing i would wrote it anyway but it wouldn't be one liner for sure
 
Fknife

Fknife

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Total posts
1,128
Chips
0
i would recommend little green book if you haven't read it yet and also John A free e-book that you can find at cash game section.
No, I have not read these books. They look really awesome so I will definitely check them out! Thanks!
If you want i can brief you how i see it and do it post flop just to see how some way of thinking can look...
Yes! If you have time, I'd really appreciate your "Postflop game/point of view". Any tip is a great help for me.
 
DrazaFFT

DrazaFFT

public static void
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Total posts
6,188
Chips
0
Ok, glad you asked, first of all, what you will read below is just how another beginner look at the post flop game, nothing here will be put in stone and i cant claim that it will be right way to do it, im not long time winner currently trying to grind at 4nl and get some cash at CC FR to continue with cash game..

Here we GO, first of all you need to get clear with the hands you want to play preflop because the way you act preflop will most of the time determine the whole your hand after the flop, with preflop i would strongly recommend you to avoid playing any weak A from any position, weak ave would be ofsuit ace and even suited from early position, not to mention weak kings and queens, forget about them, also i would avoid ATo AJo KJo QT0 trom early position and even in position when you face an raise, atleast until you get some info about your oppnents and their opening rages and how to exploit them, but if i go there ill miss the point of this post, all this is best explained in little green one, plus pay attention on how to take notes about players which is describef the best in John A book, there you will learn a lot about player habits and how to exploit them...


Now post flop, considering that you have already learned the importance of position in poker you realize that the best is to act last after flop, you might think that the one who act first can raise first and scare everyone out but that is not true, of course that at micro levels payers would love to play out of the position just because acting first gives them strength to raise, with those players at the beginning before you know anything about their habits it is best to fold your hand if you didn't connect with the flop at all, but during that time pay attention and take notes how big he raised and what board that was, players sometimes think that they have obligation to c-bet no madder what but they wary their bet sizes, good thing about micros is that most of the times jou dont have to be the one who need to pay money to see someones hand there always be players willing to do that instead you, your job is to pay attention and take notes. when you see some patern it is ok to reraise c-bet even if you have miss the flop if you have both overcards one pair draw but stay alerted if you get reraised you need to reconsider what is going on but the c-bet no madder what kind a guy will most of the time fold to a raise. if you were bettor before the flop and you are in position and the action is checked to you it is ok to c-bet no madder if you it or not hit the flop, because you'll want to represent strength, good thing about micros it that you will rarely face check-raise move so the most of the time youll either get called or they'll fold. Be carefull if you are in a multiway pot after the flop if you have missed the flop there are good chances that someone else did so dont be to crazy with bluffs specially on later streets of you get called again and again, slow it down... If you have follow the preflop hand range you would save yourelf from making decisions like is my kicker good enough, does he have a top pair even if you do and you start thinking because you dont have enough info, it is better to fold that no contionue. if you flop top pair top kicker and there is possible draw on the board, bet in the way to not give your opponents good odds to call, with that betting when they call bigger that they should you won money longterm because they'll miss more often than they'll hit, and you want drawing opponents to call you often, this part is also good explained in little green.

On the other hand if you are drawing, make sure that you only draw to the nuts, any other draw can make you loose money even if you hit, dont call draws without good pot odds you are loosing money that way, the exception tho this is when you know that your opponent wont let go his top pair no madder so if you hit you'll win even more money than it is ok to call, but dont call huge overbets or allins and justify that with implied odds, NO!!! the good way to play draws is with more players involved in the hand, that way you'll get good odds easier, donf go crazy with the pocket pairs, especially if the bord is filled with overcards, dont keep betting and paying your top pair if there is the 4 cards of same suit or possible flush or straight, dont put a lot of your money if you flopped bottom straight,, etc etc


Im so confused now, i dont know is this make any sense now...

Feel free to ask and correct me if im wrong, this is a good way for me too to learn and firx some mistakes
 
BluffMeAllIn

BluffMeAllIn

4evrInmyheart RIP xoxo :(
Silver Level
Joined
May 2, 2009
Total posts
11,324
Chips
0
^^^^ on a quick review sounds pretty solid to me Draza, especially when talking about a 9handed full ring game. Not to OP, if playing 6max same does apply however your ranges are going to widen in all positions, not super widen but in a 6max game AT, AJ, maybe even KJ are more playable from EP than they are in full ring.

Essentially less hands are dealt out and so these hands gain strength in comparison, but again you are talking full-ring 9 handed and based on this draza's post is well informed (Although, I would probably still play the AT or AJ myself from early position but wouldn't get to crazy with it and certainly table dependent etc.). But as a beginner tighter is better so long as your not being a nit and being exploited all the time, granted most micro players may not know what exploit means in poker lol.
 
Fknife

Fknife

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Total posts
1,128
Chips
0
@DrazaFFT:

Ok, first of all: thanks for sharing your strategy. Its good to hear others' tips and ideas, so you can always learn something new.

you might think that the one who act first can raise first and scare everyone out but that is not true, of course that at micro levels payers would love to play out of the position just because acting first gives them strength to raise, with those players at the beginning before you know anything about their habits it is best to fold your hand if you didn't connect with the flop at all
Alright, but what do you do if there is a really big raise (early/middle position) PREflop? Like 20x big blind. Or even someone goes All-in.

you would save yourelf from making decisions like is my kicker good enough,
Unfortunately I learnt this the hard way, but at least I got it, and I no longer bother with Aces or Kings with really small kickers. I fold them straight away.

And some questions for you (and to those who would like to reply): :)

1. How do you play low/middle pocket pairs? Do you raise/call preflop with them ? Expect to make a set on the flop and fold if you dont or you try to make something on turn/river?

2. Is there any point in your game when you decide to slowplay?

3. Bluffing?

4. Any point in going All-in at some stage of the game? What if somebody goes All-in and you are already "pot commited"?

5. How many tables do you play at once? Do you use any software to track your game/help you with decisions?
 
DrazaFFT

DrazaFFT

public static void
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Total posts
6,188
Chips
0
Thanks Bluff, i was referring to full ring... I agree that AT+ are playable, sometimes when i sit at the table where i have marked more than one fish i'll be happy to play almost any broadways but as you said, you need to adjust your play, have a plan and don't get to crazy, plus some additional info on players, like notes taken are really helpful, specially if you have drawing a lot player or AK (raise unimproved) or constant c-bet guy, or even better any ace guy, those info are really really helpful and those players when spotted are really exploitable ...
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Total posts
2,490
Chips
0
i posted this like a year ago when i was 18-24tabling 2NL and absolutely crushing it for something like 18b/100 over a 100k hand sample, so i feel like its pretty god damn ideal. its the strategy i used for 6max games, but it will work very much the same (drop a few of the bottom end of the UTG and MP range and youre golden). apart from the adjustments you need to make based on opponents tendencies, ofcourse.



OPENING RANGES

UTG: 99+, AJo+, ATs+, KQs, *77-88, Ato
MP: 99+, ATo+, ATs+, KQs+, *77-88, QJs-KJs
CO: 66+, ATo+, A8s+, suited broadway, KQo, *KTo-KJo, QJo
Btn: CO range, + all PP, all sc's 67+, all one gappers 68+ *any two if blinds f2steal>80%
SB: 66+, ATo+, A9s+, QJs/o+, *any two if BB f2steal>70%
BB: purely dependent on who raised. UTG range basically vs anyone other than Btn, SB. Btn range vs anyone else.

*play if table is passive. i tend to go by whether the people left to act have a 3b stat of less than 8%=passive.

obv this is super broad and changes on table dynamic but its a solid guidline to follow when 12-24 tabling

never call 3bs unless ESS makes sense to do so. no set mining. basically never playing out of blinds unless im 3bing. big emphasis on looking for mass multitabling nits who i can 3b light, and 3bing as light as KJs vs the typical fishtard population for value.

as for 3bing;
IP:
- AA: 4b v nit, flat 3b vs lagtard
- KK: same as AA
- QQ: flat 3b, adjust based on texture post
- JJ: same as QQ
- TT: 4b shove vs guys with a bigger 3b range than 8.5%, 4b/fold vs guys with lower than 8.5%
- AK: 4b/6b vs guys with a bigger 3b range than 3%, 4b/fold vs guys with lower than 3%

OOP:
- AA: 3b/5b shove
- KK: same as AA
- QQ: 3b/flat 4b, shove non AK flop
- JJ: 3b/fold
- TT: 3b/fold
-AK: 3b/fold



imo, most of your mistakes and losses will come from postflop play, but at least this will help you have a better time post flop, by setting yourself up better preflop. with experience and time, as you develop into a really competent poker player, you will find that it honestly barely matters how you play preflop (within reason ofcourse) at these levels.

GL.
 
Fknife

Fknife

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Total posts
1,128
Chips
0
@JCGrind:

Thats a damn good list! I think I have already seen it somewhere on this forum but anyway thanks for reposting it to my topic :)
 
L

lost2qandisa

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Total posts
268
Chips
0
I have ha bad luck at micro's as well. It seems no matter what, I do well then just to lose it all to a person that calls on a draw or with nothing and catches. I have started doing the min buy in. Once I double that buy in I leave and then buy in at min again. It helps protect my earnings

I just lost on brovada yesterday in a tourney First hand of tourney KK The flop was 10 7 3 with two diamonds showing I pushed. A guy called with A 10 unsuited and caught A on river Dumb call paid. I was still in. Next hand I played was QQ. I did a 5XBB bet guy called. I flopped a Q. I pushed. Guy called with JJ. Next two cards were clubs to put four clubs on board and hed had J of clubs. So over all the bad beats at brovada.
 
BluffMeAllIn

BluffMeAllIn

4evrInmyheart RIP xoxo :(
Silver Level
Joined
May 2, 2009
Total posts
11,324
Chips
0
i posted this like a year ago when i was 18-24tabling 2NL and absolutely crushing it for something like 18b/100 over a 100k hand sample, so i feel like its pretty god damn ideal. its the strategy i used for 6max games, but it will work very much the same (drop a few of the bottom end of the UTG and MP range and youre golden). apart from the adjustments you need to make based on opponents tendencies, ofcourse.



OPENING RANGES

UTG: 99+, AJo+, ATs+, KQs, *77-88, Ato
MP: 99+, ATo+, ATs+, KQs+, *77-88, QJs-KJs
CO: 66+, ATo+, A8s+, suited broadway, KQo, *KTo-KJo, QJo
Btn: CO range, + all PP, all sc's 67+, all one gappers 68+ *any two if blinds f2steal>80%
SB: 66+, ATo+, A9s+, QJs/o+, *any two if BB f2steal>70%
BB: purely dependent on who raised. UTG range basically vs anyone other than Btn, SB. Btn range vs anyone else.

*play if table is passive. i tend to go by whether the people left to act have a 3b stat of less than 8%=passive.

obv this is super broad and changes on table dynamic but its a solid guidline to follow when 12-24 tabling

never call 3bs unless ESS makes sense to do so. no set mining. basically never playing out of blinds unless im 3bing. big emphasis on looking for mass multitabling nits who i can 3b light, and 3bing as light as KJs vs the typical fishtard population for value.

as for 3bing;
IP:
- AA: 4b v nit, flat 3b vs lagtard
- KK: same as AA
- QQ: flat 3b, adjust based on texture post
- JJ: same as QQ
- TT: 4b shove vs guys with a bigger 3b range than 8.5%, 4b/fold vs guys with lower than 8.5%
- AK: 4b/6b vs guys with a bigger 3b range than 3%, 4b/fold vs guys with lower than 3%

OOP:
- AA: 3b/5b shove
- KK: same as AA
- QQ: 3b/flat 4b, shove non AK flop
- JJ: 3b/fold
- TT: 3b/fold
-AK: 3b/fold


imo, most of your mistakes and losses will come from postflop play, but at least this will help you have a better time post flop, by setting yourself up better preflop. with experience and time, as you develop into a really competent poker player, you will find that it honestly barely matters how you play preflop (within reason ofcourse) at these levels.

GL.
Very Nice, guess this was back in the early parts of your grind thread. Have been meaning to go back and read through but certainly a good guidline for the micro given how profitable everything ran for you over such a huge sample.

GL on your continued grind now as well, and unfortunate on the recent run of 25nl but im sure you will be crushing it in no time.
 
Top