Prices For Premium Hands

TxScorpion

TxScorpion

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
112
Chips
0
Hey fellow poker players got a question about how much should you raise the pot when you have a premium hand?

I had a session a while back where if had say AdKd I would just bet $20. The people who had garbage hands immediately got out of the way and the people who "might" have something stuck around. Well the flop hits and I miss everything! No flush or straight draw, no pairs, no nadda! Then I would c-bet the turn hoping to make up for what I missed on the flop. My opponent calls my bet and we see another card and again nothing! I bet again and the opponent again just calls. I bet AGAIN on the river and a final whiff! My opponent calls and he has a pair of 2s!

Looking back, I felt that I paid too much for a hand that wasn't already made and spent the rest of the hand chasing for the ace or king when instead I should have let the hand go at the turn and save me some much needed chips.

What's another way that I should have played this hand or any hands similar to this going forward?
 
BluffMeAllIn

BluffMeAllIn

4evrInmyheart RIP xoxo :(
Silver Level
Joined
May 2, 2009
Total posts
11,324
Chips
0
Missing a lot of info Tx, specifically the blinds? A 20$ bet could be too much or too little, all depends on the blinds.

Also if you play tight opponent could know this and expect you to have been playing a big A that didn't hit which could be why they called you down.

As for what prices for premium hands, always the same price for all hands (well sometimes varying a little but as long as you vary with the range so not giving away betting pattern info).

Anyhow let us know the blinds and we might have more info.

Edit: I guess standard speeking should be looking at a 3-4bb raise if your first action in the pot besides the blinds (adjust additional 1bb for each limper), but again more details of the amount of your bets on the flop, turn, river stack sizes etc all make a big difference in the comments we could provide on your inquiry.
 
TxScorpion

TxScorpion

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
112
Chips
0
*in my Old McDonald voice* dag nabbit!! Lol!! Forgot a big piece of info here. I'm playing $1/$2 NLHE live at a casino...For the hand in question, I was UTG since I was first to act with 90bb behind. Not sure if I left anything out but let me know and I'll try to recall as much as I can about the hand. Hope this helps.
 
BluffMeAllIn

BluffMeAllIn

4evrInmyheart RIP xoxo :(
Silver Level
Joined
May 2, 2009
Total posts
11,324
Chips
0
So you opened for 10x, quite the large raise to open. Granted even that would depend on the table dynamics I suppose but a large open raise either way.

What was the flop action, I know you indicated you raised each street and were called down. I guess looking at it as you are UTG you were either out of position or a blind defended with the 22.

So if you were looking at being IP and the blind checked to you where you raised and they called and this happened on all streets, you have to think to yourself what could they have. If they called preflop especially for that large a bet, without knowing anything about a villian, you would have to consider credit for having some kind of a hand (sml-med pp+ or a big A themselves maybe).

If they check the flop, call your raise, check the turn, call your raise by this time you would have to start thinking maybe they are just milking you and could have a prem hand so in most cases river would be a check/check as I don't think the 3 barrel there when you have nothing but A high is going to result in anything good. Also everything depends on the size of your bets along the streets because maybe they were not big enough to rep anything or too big and was looking to be an AK trying to scare them away.

I'l end this here as its sort of a vague situation, and I'm sure you get my point from the above. Everything question in poker usually has a simple answer, "It depends", because without all of the facts its often difficult to have a direct answer and everything is situational depending on stack size, players etc.
 
jorzunik

jorzunik

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Total posts
254
Chips
0
would be nice if you used a program that is used to see the development of the hand and so to say because missing information about your position if it was long or short board, bet size for better analysis etc.
 
TxScorpion

TxScorpion

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
112
Chips
0
So you opened for 10x, quite the large raise to open. Granted even that would depend on the table dynamics I suppose but a large open raise either way.

I wasn't sure what the table dynamics were as this was my first hand at this particular table. The purpose for me raising that high was twofold (1) to announce that i have a big hand (even though they were only 2 suited face cards..not pairs) and (2) try to start a big pot. Was i wrong in raising with such a high amount? Or was I just wrong PERIOD?!

What was the flop action, I know you indicated you raised each street and were called down. I guess looking at it as you are UTG you were either out of position or a blind defended with the 22.

If I remember correctly, the flop was 10s 7d 4d or something along those lines.

So if you were looking at being IP and the blind checked to you where you raised and they called and this happened on all streets, you have to think to yourself what could they have. If they called preflop especially for that large a bet, without knowing anything about a villian, you would have to consider credit for having some kind of a hand (sml-med pp+ or a big A themselves maybe).

Does IP mean "In Position"?
 
BluffMeAllIn

BluffMeAllIn

4evrInmyheart RIP xoxo :(
Silver Level
Joined
May 2, 2009
Total posts
11,324
Chips
0
Yes IP is in position. Raising to get a big pot started with AK is wrong IMO, its just A high afterall and you did announce that you had a big hand (probably why the villian called with 22 to setmine, on a read based on you have a hand like AK or AQ).

Building a big pot should never be the thought process pre-flop, more so isolation and yes repping a big hand however 3-4x from UTG if the players know anything about position play would be repping a similarly big hand given in such an early position play is generally tighter by any decent player.

We only should want to "build" a big pot when we are fairly confident its not going to be shipping in the wrong direction, ie we have the nuts or know that we have the opponent beat. Thus is the TAG approach, aggressive when we have a hand because we want to extract max value.

On the same note if you had continued to be aggressive with large bets on flop and turn and player wasn't going anywhere, then obv 99% of the time the aggression should be shutdown on the river for a check back situation, like I said your huge bet basically told the player I have AK (generally big pp, pocket pairs, arn't betting so large because they don't want to just scare out all opponents when having such a strong hand) and so his line on this was that unless an A or a K comes I'm sticking around because 22 will beat AK >50% of the time :D.

and as the nickname says AK (Anna Kornacova (obv not how that is spelled lol)) looks pretty but doesn't (often) win :D
 
BigCountryAA

BigCountryAA

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Total posts
762
Chips
0
That big of a raise usually screams big ace to me and probably did to him as well. Raising different amounts based on hand strength is a leak imo you should raise the same with everything imo.
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
Remember that a bet should have a specific goal in mind, e.g. to isolate, to get multiple callers, to steal, etc.

In most cases though, we want to balance/disguise our range between premiums and air by making it hard to tell which we have. IOW, you're almost always representing some strength with your preflop bet, whether you actually have it or not, so you want to bet air the same way you bet the nuts. If villain knows we tend to bet X with air and Y with the nuts, then it's an easy game for him. I think we touched on this in your Position thread, but as was said there and here, don't alter your bet size based on the strength of your hand. That is highly exploitable, you're basically playing every hand face up that way.

Here are some common factors that will cause you adjust your pre-flop bet sizing:
  • In relation to the blind levels. This mostly applies to tourneys. As blinds increase in relation to stack sizes, then opening raise sizes should decrease so that you're not over-committing your stack on your less premium hands, at least until you're in push/fold mode. You want to be able to play your good hands like mid PP's or maybe suited broadways, but still get away from them when it's clear you're beat. How much you adjust sizing will vary by person, but as a general rule I'll start a normal tournament with a standard 3x open when stacks are deep (say at 10/20 or 15/30 blinds). Then when the blinds get to 50/100, I'm opening 2.5x. Then somewhere around 100/200 maybe I go to 2.25x, and then at 150/300 or 200/400 and beyond, I'm 2x minraising until I'm short enough I have to shove or fold. Another advantage here is later in the tourney, when chips are more valuable, your premium hands will be more likely to get action because you're betting smaller.
  • In relation to position. This applies mostly in cash games, but sometimes tourneys too. Some people bet more in early position and less in late position, for example 3.5x UTG, 2.5x OTB, and 3x in between. Or some will add 1bb UTG/+1 and every other position be the same. Reason being, in early position if you bet too little you risk getting a lot of callers, which generally isn't what you want especially with PP's. It helps to slightly reduce your positional disadvantage. In late position you don't need to bet as much to limit the field if only the blinds behind you might call, plus you have positional advantage, so you risk a little less before you can see a flop. You can always build the pot later on a favorable flop.
  • In relation to the number of players in the pot. When you want to either isolate/narrow the field with a value bet, or punish limpers by stealing their weak bets with ATC, you'll start with your standard open (say 3x) and add 1bb for every limper in front of you. This is to price out callers behind (or narrow their range) and shake loose the weaker limpers, depending on how many you want to the flop. Normally with your bigger PP's you want to take the flop HU or 3-way, while with your speculative hands like suited connectors, you prefer a multi-way flop for the implied odds (in which case you're usually just calling).
  • To induce a certain reaction based on a read. This is a bit advanced and requires good reading skills and paying attention to other players involved. It's one of the only times your hand strength might influence your bet size. If you've noticed a villain reacts to certain bet sizes or patterns, you can exploit that. For instance, if a villain always shoves on overbets because he considers them bluffy, then overbet your strong hands in order to induce the shove. Or if you're a small stack and big stack bully is running over the table and 3betting every minraise, then minraise your big hands. There are a number of similar ways to manipulate predictable opponents with your bet sizing. Again, this works best when you've already narrowed the field to a HU situation -- be aware of who else has to act, because you don't want to invite the wrong people into your craftily calculated trap. If you're not careful here though, you'll wind up trapping yourself, so don't overdo it. Save this tactic for when your game has advanced a bit.
  • To apply pressure when you're the table captain. Like bubble situations where you're the chip leader with a huge relative stack, and a bunch of short stacks are sweating the bubble. You might normally be minraising at this point, but with your safe stack you can increase your bet sizing to force the shorties to commit their entire stacks if they want to play. Being the bully is very effective, as long as you can recognize when to back down. You have to be careful though because if you do this too much with air, you might price yourself into having to call their shove and risk doubling up a shortie, which can be dangerous even though the chip loss didn't really hurt you.
There are other cases that fall in between some of those, like squeezing for instance. But barring a specific situation where you're trying to achieve something out of the ordinary, you should NOT be sizing your bets based on hand strength.

As to a 10x opening size, that would be hugely unconventional online where only the most clueless players tend to do this. In live games, however, opening sizes can run the gamut, and I've seen some crazy games where 5-10x was standard, and you have to adopt (and adapt to) that standard.
 
Last edited:
AlfieAA

AlfieAA

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 17, 2012
Total posts
10,689
Awards
4
Chips
0
great post dm, enjoyed reading it.
 
Starting Hands - Poker Hand Nicknames Rankings - Poker Hands
Top