Preflop Question

schnozzinkobenstein · Jun 22, 2008

Say, preflop I'm on the button with a semi-premium hand like AJ in a NL ring game and everyone else has folded. Should I make a low raise in the hope that SB or BB limp in so that I can maximize my rake, or should I just do a normal raise and steal the blinds? The blind players are tight, so I'm expecting a fold except against all but a small raise. Does it matter whether it's a micro game?

KyleJRM · Jun 22, 2008

schnozzinkobenstein said:
Say, preflop I'm on the button with a semi-premium hand like AJ in a NL ring game and everyone else has folded. Should I make a low raise in the hope that SB or BB limp in so that I can maximize my rake, or should I just do a normal raise and steal the blinds? The blind players are tight, so I'm expecting a fold except against all but a small raise. Does it matter whether it's a micro game?

Make your standard raise from the button. Otherwise, it gets too obvious to tell when you are stealing and when you aren't.

feitr · Jun 22, 2008

schnozzinkobenstein said:
Say, preflop I'm on the button with a semi-premium hand like AJ in a NL ring game and everyone else has folded. Should I make a low raise in the hope that SB or BB limp in so that I can maximize my rake, or should I just do a normal raise and steal the blinds? The blind players are tight, so I'm expecting a fold except against all but a small raise. Does it matter whether it's a micro game?

That doesn't even make sense :S You maximise your rake if you pick up the blinds, because you don't pay any. As said, just make your standard raise and don't worry about silly things like this.

Dayne G. · Jun 23, 2008

schnozzinkobenstein said:
Say, preflop I'm on the button with a semi-premium hand like AJ in a NL ring game and everyone else has folded. Should I make a low raise in the hope that SB or BB limp in so that I can maximize my rake, or should I just do a normal raise and steal the blinds? The blind players are tight, so I'm expecting a fold except against all but a small raise. Does it matter whether it's a micro game?

Raise what ever is standard for you.

I'm a big fan of Ted Forrest's style, though. He believes in mixing-up the amount of your raises. He does play semi-backwards (at least, that's what he wants you to think) which I like-- most don't.

I love mixing it up. If he raises 4x BB w/ AJo, 3x w/ AJo... min. raise w/ AJo... what does his raise mean when he raises 3.5x?

His premise states that you CAN'T read what his different preflop raises mean, like most players say they can.

KyleJRM · Jun 23, 2008

Dayne G. said:
Raise what ever is standard for you.

I'm a big fan of Ted Forrest's style, though. He believes in mixing-up the amount of your raises. He does play semi-backwards (at least, that's what he wants you to think) which I like-- most don't.

I love mixing it up. If he raises 4x BB w/ AJo, 3x w/ AJo... min. raise w/ AJo... what does his raise mean when he raises 3.5x?

His premise states that you CAN'T read what his different preflop raises mean, like most players say they can.

Like LAG play and soulreads, that kind of play should be left to those who have already mastered the basics

Dayne G. · Jun 23, 2008

KyleJRM said:
Like LAG play and soulreads, that kind of play should be left to those who have already mastered the basics

Maybe, maybe not. I understand what you mean, but your "basics" might be different than mine.

Because X author/player says, "you must raise 3x pre every time, in order to disguise..." doesn't necessarily make it so.

c9h13no3 · Jun 23, 2008

schnozzinkobenstein said:
Say, preflop I'm on the button with a semi-premium hand like AJ in a NL ring game and everyone else has folded. Should I make a low raise in the hope that SB or BB limp in so that I can maximize my rake, or should I just do a normal raise and steal the blinds? The blind players are tight, so I'm expecting a fold except against all but a small raise. Does it matter whether it's a micro game?

You should make a larger than average raise from the button in a cash game. A few reasons why:

1) You have position, and you'd like to play a big pot in postion.
2) Your hand while good, isn't a huge favorite over most hands.
3) Your hand also plays better when the stack to pot ratio is smaller, to reduce the implied odds of your opponents.

I generally raise larger (4-5xBB's) from the button & cut-off, and less (3-3.5xBB's) from earlier positions. Things vary though, since at the limits I play at, my opponents aren't all that observant.

shagnscoob · Jun 23, 2008

Perhaps 3x the big blind + 1x for every limper before you. Lee Jones' recommends that in his book. Pretty easy to remember.

NineLions · Jun 23, 2008

Standard theory is 3 - 4 BBs. For every hand you open raise.

The alternative is 2.5 from early, getting larger the later the position. The reasoning behind this is if you're playing players who understand position, they know that you are more likely to be open raising with weaker and weaker hands, as you should. If you open raise from early, there's no need to raise as much because the players expect that you have a premium hand because that's what you should be raising with from early.

Best simple advice; pick 3 or 4 (plus one for each limper ahead of you) and stick with it. Adjust only when you know the players after you call too many raises. Don't adjust based on your hand strength. (Unless you want action with AA, but then you have to be prepared to chuck it if too many people take your invite)

TheKid84 · Jun 23, 2008

I like the "Stick to your normal raise" form. Show if the table is tight and you want them to know you aren't stealing blinds.

SavagePenguin · Jun 23, 2008

Stick to your normal raise.

This should also be your normal steal amount as well.

RickH2005 · Jun 24, 2008

Raise??

Why not do what ALL the donks do at the freerolls I play in at UB?? Push all in!!!!!!!!!

Just kiddin'! Although that IS what happens ALL THE TIME THERE, I think keepin' yer standard raise is most logical as it gives nothing away. And I find micro tournys are, in fact, treated alot like freerolls. AND,of course the higher limits DO play a bit tighter and the people play more REAL poker!

Dayne G. · Jun 24, 2008

NineLions said:
Standard theory is 3 - 4 BBs. For every hand you open raise.

The alternative is 2.5 from early, getting larger the later the position. The reasoning behind this is if you're playing players who understand position, they know that you are more likely to be open raising with weaker and weaker hands, as you should. If you open raise from early, there's no need to raise as much because the players expect that you have a premium hand because that's what you should be raising with from early.

Best simple advice; pick 3 or 4 (plus one for each limper ahead of you) and stick with it. Adjust only when you know the players after you call too many raises. Don't adjust based on your hand strength. (Unless you want action with AA, but then you have to be prepared to chuck it if too many people take your invite)

If I know that you know about positional raises... I may raise more up front, hoping you read this as weakness, and come over the top, or better yet... call w/ weak holding.

This is why as we get better, and play against better players, STANDARD should thrown into the garbage forever!!!!

OzExorcist · Jun 24, 2008

Dayne G. said:
If I know that you know about positional raises... I may raise more up front, hoping you read this as weakness, and come over the top, or better yet... call w/ weak holding.

This is why as we get better, and play against better players, STANDARD should thrown into the garbage forever!!!!

As was mentioned in the other thread though, the "standard" raise isn't really as standard as it seems. If you're making the same raise with AJ that you would with AA and that you would with 67o, then you're not really giving your opponents that much information.

I like mixing up both the hands and the bet sizes a bit, but the "standard" raise isn't as catastrophic a proposition as you may be suggesting.

PokerVic · Jun 25, 2008

Dayne G. said:
His premise states that you CAN'T read what his different preflop raises mean, like most players say they can.

If that's the case, then why do it? Unless he's using this method to disguise the fact that he's actually raising big more often with big hands (AA, KK, etc), I don't see the point. Or is it just to make your opponent THINK they know what you're holding?

schnozzinkobenstein · Jun 25, 2008

This is all great stuff guys. Thanks for the replies.

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Preflop Question

schnozzinkobenstein

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KyleJRM

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feitr

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Dayne G.

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Dayne G.

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RickH2005

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Dayne G.

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OzExorcist

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PokerVic

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schnozzinkobenstein

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