Post-flop play

helpspb

helpspb

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
1,273
Chips
0
There are so many books and online articles on pre-flop play, hand selection, bet sizing, pre-flop positions etc., but what I've been really struggling with is post-flop play. I haven't been playing poker for too long, so I guess it's best to ask you guys who are much more experienced and know your stuff.
First off, I don't think I'm enough aggressive. Not that I'd think it's always good idea to be super aggro, but folding too easily doesn't seem to be the way either. So I'm looking for your general advices on how to continue after the flop if I don't hit anything, if I hit or if I have straight/flush draw etc. If I have a strong hand and miss the flop how often do you continue betting? Also if I'm not first to act I have a strong hand and someobe before me bets? What's best approach then? I'm aware that the nature of the table, your opponents, position etc are all also important. But if you have any idea where I could start to improve post-flop play, it'd be greatly appreciated.
Also are there any books, articles or videos that you'd recommend about post-flop play?
 
Snakmacher

Snakmacher

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Total posts
530
Chips
0
In early stages of tournaments I mostly fold unless I get super strong combination like AA, AK suited and watch others if and when they reraise ... Most of the fishies reraise like by 500+ chips when they have nothing. It is generally very easy to play loose and passive - if I want my colleagues at table to force viewing me as fish - I do this from time to time and when have the good cards do it and they think like (he has nothing and raise on me and sometimes I end with very huge pot) . :)

Anyway it depends on your table position, the size of pot (there is no need to risk half of your stack because of 500 chips).

So for example you get A9 suited and on flop will come : A 9 A (you should raise, but if the other guy will reraise you dont go all in - just call him), on pokerstars can easily happen that he is holding KK and also that will K K

It happened to me once near paid prizes in one huge tournament - I raised a lot before flop and he called, on flop got fullhouse and went all in he called me with KK on his hand, than came on turn K and on river K too and i was like WTF and I lost 70 000 chips out of my 78k stack...
 
DrazaFFT

DrazaFFT

public static void
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Total posts
6,188
Chips
0
Well as stated many many times there is no exact way to play poker, but here are some guidelines i follow. But before that you need to learn and master pot odds, outs implied odds, etc, articles here are very good you can also check out PSO.

Anyway, if you play tag poker post flop play wont left you with a lot of tough decisions, so if you connect youll either have tptk, top pair good with good kicker, oesd and gutshot , flush draw or you can miss flop entirely, you wouldnt get yourself in situation where you flop top pair with 4 kicker, which happens with suited aces hands or similar situation. If you initiated action pre flop you can c-bet even if you missed the flop but dont do it every time because someone could pick what you doing and exploit that habit, specially someone with a hud, if you hit nuts on flop but you were not aggressor preflop and you act before him, dont donk bet, check it to him, now we all know that but someone might know why is that, when you hit nuts it is great chance that inital raisor missed the flop and if you donk bet to him you might scare him away and your goal is to take as much money you can when you have monster so if you check he will probably c-bet and there you go, more money that you would get if he folded your donk bet. Of course donk bet can be used as a bluff sometimes but dont make it a habit, i read few articles about donk bet bluffs but i never tried it, i always check to the raiser. Now, dont be a guy who gives all his money on top pair hand, not to mention middle pair or something worse, on this part of play i would strongly recommend first few chapters of little green book, it explains post flop hands from every position, and it is great and helped me a lot... When you drawing you gotta know do you have good pot odds to draw, when you think that your opponent is drawing make him pay more that pot odds would let him to pay for draws etc...

this is best i could, i might be wrong at some parts, i dont think of myself as a good player i have still a lot to learn but i hope that i helped at least a little bit
 
helpspb

helpspb

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
1,273
Chips
0
Thanks Snakmacher. Yea, I agree it's best to be pretty tight at the beginning of the tournament. My biggest problem is discipline and self-control, especially when it comes to freerols. Often I let these fishies provoke me and call their all-in with higher pocket pairs etc. Of course, they get lucky with hands like 69o ....
When I have nuts I like to slow play it, too. Gets you more money.
BTW, great to see someone from CR over here ;)

Thanks Draza for the reminder about pot odds, implied odds and outs.... I'm usually watching pot odds, but I've been neglecting other stuff. Guess it's time to re-read PSO articles and check out CC ones. THanks for your points on post-flop play. I know I've read about these 'rules' before, but it's always great to have someone remind you some of that.
Can you tell me what do you mean little green book? I've noticed people talking about it in other threads too but who's the author and what's the whole name of the book? It's time to study hehe :icon_stud
 
C

cotta777

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 27, 2012
Total posts
868
Chips
0
Thanks Snakmacher. Yea, I agree it's best to be pretty tight at the beginning of the tournament. My biggest problem is discipline and self-control, especially when it comes to freerols. Often I let these fishies provoke me and call their all-in with higher pocket pairs etc. Of course, they get lucky with hands like 69o ....
When I have nuts I like to slow play it, too. Gets you more money.
BTW, great to see someone from CR over here ;)

Thanks Draza for the reminder about pot odds, implied odds and outs.... I'm usually watching pot odds, but I've been neglecting other stuff. Guess it's time to re-read PSO articles and check out CC ones. THanks for your points on post-flop play. I know I've read about these 'rules' before, but it's always great to have someone remind you some of that.
Can you tell me what do you mean little green book? I've noticed people talking about it in other threads too but who's the author and what's the whole name of the book? It's time to study hehe :icon_stud


One thing I will say is if your playing the freerolls and turbos theirs not much middle play it fastly goes from middle to end game strategy.

post flop is all about narrowing down their holdings and being in position,

Like say the board is Q-J-4 - with a flush draw and you have now c-bet the flop, and you get called. the board comes Qh-Jh-4c-7d and you make a second stab of the pot and your opponent flat calls again....

If he had strong holding like QJ or QA he would not be flatting on the flop and then the turn because the board is so wet my guess would be hes either flat calling to induce a second barrel he knows your prob not holding a set or better so he
has to re-raise their for his value and protection...

so he's either drawing to a flush in which case the flat makes sense or he has one pair like a J10, J9 - JK a weaker queen maybe.

now that in mind hes calling the turn and is only making his straight draw 16%
of the time or his flush draw 14% and the chances of him having both is less than 1%
also he could have a set, but agais he wont want to see a draw.
this means 70% the time both miss and 50% of the time it does hit the draw we will still take down the pot on the river.
giving us an equity of 84% if we shove the river. we can account for an equity decrease of roughly say 10-14% as he may call off 2 pair or top pair on the odd occasion or pair a q or jack on the river.
now given we have somekind of equity I would seldom double barrel a flat caller on a drawing board.
even with air this can be profitbale

So for us the profit is huge in tournaments when the stacks get bigger and the bubble approaches
and also in cash games...

''I must also state only when the read is fairly accurate will it determine how +ev effective we are''

thats an example of how post flop you can get information

if you use that thought process **what hand would he re-raise me with - **what hands would he flat call the flop with etc
and anaylise the board texture you can become a very scary and dangerous player to get involved with
 
Last edited:
DrazaFFT

DrazaFFT

public static void
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Total posts
6,188
Chips
0
Glad i was helpfull m8, the full name of the book is "Phil Gordon's Little Green Book", absolutely great read, i didnt finished it yet because im really short with time but so fat, pure gold...
 
Abedin120

Abedin120

Rock Star
Platinum Level
Joined
Sep 3, 2012
Total posts
316
Chips
0
Try reading these books. I hope it will help you.

"How to read the hands at no-limit hold'em poker" by Ed Miller

"Professional No-Limit Hold'em: Volume I" by Matt Flynn, Sunny Mehta, Ed Miller
 
helpspb

helpspb

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
1,273
Chips
0
Thank you all for your thorough advices. It's really appreciated. :)
I'm gonna check out the books you recommended thanks again.

I think I'm rather good at reading opponents, but I don't always follow my reads. Sometimes it's like "he could have this or that", but I refuse to fold even though I'm well aware that he could be/is holding certain usually strong cards.
 
Last edited:
jorzunik

jorzunik

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Total posts
254
Chips
0
friend the truth there is no recipe to play and be the best ..

the only thing you need to know is to learn to lie ... a bluff is the most effective without risking much and much better on a semi-bluff connect something big .. do not be intimidated everything is trial and error without being as aggressive or as thigt plays quiet, have annotations of the players, and especially luck.

greetings rookie tells you one fish :)
 
Henry Minute

Henry Minute

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 6, 2013
Total posts
2,740
Awards
8
Chips
0
There are so many books and online articles on pre-flop play, hand selection, bet sizing, pre-flop positions etc., but what I've been really struggling with is post-flop play. I haven't been playing poker for too long, so I guess it's best to ask you guys who are much more experienced and know your stuff.
First off, I don't think I'm enough aggressive. Not that I'd think it's always good idea to be super aggro, but folding too easily doesn't seem to be the way either. So I'm looking for your general advices on how to continue after the flop if I don't hit anything, if I hit or if I have straight/flush draw etc. If I have a strong hand and miss the flop how often do you continue betting? Also if I'm not first to act I have a strong hand and someobe before me bets? What's best approach then? I'm aware that the nature of the table, your opponents, position etc are all also important. But if you have any idea where I could start to improve post-flop play, it'd be greatly appreciated.
Also are there any books, articles or videos that you'd recommend about post-flop play?
I'm pretty much like you are so far as post flop play is concerned. I'm a twisted knot of indecision if I don't hit and I'm not holding a highish pair.

It's not at all unusual for me to be playing something like A,J and the flop comes 2,6,8 rainbow. If I'm first to act I will usually C-bet 2x ish and see what happens but if someone bets before me or re-raises me I mostly fold (depends on the amount, of course). Once I've folded it's pretty much guaranteed that an A will come on the turn or river. :banghead:

Back to the drawing board.
 
Top