Post flop betting dilemma

TurningStar · Oct 22, 2008

Hey all. Still working on my game and experimenting with different styles of play. I have hit a crossroads in one particular area and was looking for some insight.

I'm Still playing the 3 and 6 dollar 18 - 45 plr tourneys.

Basically the current style I am using and is to all sorts of different traps especially early in the tourney and let the agressive villian hang him self post flop......and against a more conservative player to win small to medium pots by value betting, pot betting or overbetting the turn and mostly the river getting them to fold without seeing my cards.

I am able to do this by always checking/calling the flop and a lot of times the turn whether in positon or out of positon and waiting for the others to react and make a move. Of course if they bet and the odds are not good I just fold unless I have a serious read.

That being said...Its really great when the agressive villian hangs himself after thinking Im weak when I was really trapping

But when Im facing a more conservative villian how much of the pot should I usually bet to 1) sweeten the pot a bit more and 2) Make the villain still think that I am weak so I will be able to crush them or value bet them out of the hand on the turn or river.

Its not the worse problem in the world but I get frustrated sometimes when I dont sweeten the pot a bit on the flop and 4th street and the villain does not fall for my trap and I only win a small pot. I also dislike it when leading out with probe bets that will cause the villian(s) to fold.

After writing all of this (sorry for the length) I am thinking that in a muti way pot I should put out a small bet and hope one of the multiple villians fall into the trap......and against a single villian just bet or not based on the reads?

Any other advice or insight on how to sweeten up a pot while setting a trap? I apologize if this is contradicting situation....I am just trying improve...

Thanks!

NineLions · Oct 22, 2008

Wow. You seem to place a pretty high value on trapping players.

Most players focus on aggression; ie. bet, raise, or fold. Maybe that works to your advantage if everyone is doing that.

But the whole perspective of thinking about trapping as much as you seem to is out of the range of my thinking experience. Even at 6 max table with LAG/maniacs I'm rarely focusing so much on trapping, I'm more focussed on how to best get all the money in, which may be trapping or may be coming over the top.

Sometimes a low levels I run across players who's only play is to slowplay, to the point that they'll let themselves get outdrawn because they don't protect a marginal hand. When I've noted that, I'll value bet the heck out of them hand after hand, then fold whenever they show any aggression. I guess that doesn't help you much as that's how players are probably trying to play you.

c9h13no3 · Oct 22, 2008

Slowplaying in a micro-stakes SnG is like complaining about the heat in hell, its pointless. Man-up & put some money in the pot.

shinedown.45 · Oct 22, 2008

TurningStar said:
Hey all. Still working on my game and experimenting with different styles of play. I have hit a crossroads in one particular area and was looking for some insight.

I'm Still playing the 3 and 6 dollar 18 - 45 plr tourneys.

Basically the current style I am using and is to all sorts of different traps especially early in the tourney and let the agressive villian hang him self post flop......and against a more conservative player to win small to medium pots by value betting, pot betting or overbetting the turn and mostly the river getting them to fold without seeing my cards.

I am able to do this by always checking/calling the flop and a lot of times the turn whether in positon or out of positon and waiting for the others to react and make a move. Of course if they bet and the odds are not good I just fold unless I have a serious read.

That being said...Its really great when the agressive villian hangs himself after thinking Im weak when I was really trapping

But when Im facing a more conservative villian how much of the pot should I usually bet to 1) sweeten the pot a bit more and 2) Make the villain still think that I am weak so I will be able to crush them or value bet them out of the hand on the turn or river.

Its not the worse problem in the world but I get frustrated sometimes when I dont sweeten the pot a bit on the flop and 4th street and the villain does not fall for my trap and I only win a small pot. I also dislike it when leading out with probe bets that will cause the villian(s) to fold.

After writing all of this (sorry for the length) I am thinking that in a muti way pot I should put out a small bet and hope one of the multiple villians fall into the trap......and against a single villian just bet or not based on the reads?

Any other advice or insight on how to sweeten up a pot while setting a trap? I apologize if this is contradicting situation....I am just trying improve...

Thanks!

Sorry, can't really give you insight on how to trap a conservative player, as most conservative players are good at detecting traps and there won't be too many chips to gain from a conservative player.
Most conservative players will easily pick up a read on trap plays, that is one of the reasons why it is better to be a conservative player, they pay more attention to the players when not in a hand.

GSpicoli · Oct 22, 2008

Trapping players is a good play but you can't use it all the time. If people see you do it too much you'll just trap yourself into getting busted out of your tourney. You need to use aggression even against the tight conservative players. Better to take down a pot early then get caught with your pants down late.

TurningStar · Oct 23, 2008

NineLions said:
Wow. You seem to place a pretty high value on trapping players.

Most players focus on aggression; ie. bet, raise, or fold. Maybe that works to your advantage if everyone is doing that.

But the whole perspective of thinking about trapping as much as you seem to is out of the range of my thinking experience. Even at 6 max table with LAG/maniacs I'm rarely focusing so much on trapping, I'm more focussed on how to best get all the money in, which may be trapping or may be coming over the top.

Sometimes a low levels I run across players who's only play is to slowplay, to the point that they'll let themselves get outdrawn because they don't protect a marginal hand. When I've noted that, I'll value bet the heck out of them hand after hand, then fold whenever they show any aggression. I guess that doesn't help you much as that's how players are probably trying to play you.

Yeah the value betting really does work against this style....I usually call the first one and then the second one is oh so tempting to call as well....I usually just fold right there though and end the spewing...

TurningStar · Oct 23, 2008

c9h13no3 said:
Slowplaying in a micro-stakes SnG is like complaining about the heat in hell, its pointless. Man-up & put some money in the pot.

Hmmmm...just wondering if you guys agree with this statement...even for a beginner that is trying practice different styles?

I figure throwing money into the pot is the easiest thing you can do in holdem...Thats why I was kinda asking about size of the bets relative to the style...oh well...

TurningStar · Oct 23, 2008

GSpicoli said:
Trapping players is a good play but you can't use it all the time. If people see you do it too much you'll just trap yourself into getting busted out of your tourney. You need to use aggression even against the tight conservative players. Better to take down a pot early then get caught with your pants down late.

Yeah your right sometimes it does backfire....I guess Im just working on mastering the art for now...just to see how diff. players respond in different situations...

Thanks for all of the imput guys...Looks like this is not a style I should fall in love with in the long run....lol...

Steveg1976 · Oct 23, 2008

TurningStar said:
Hmmmm...just wondering if you guys agree with this statement...even for a beginner that is trying practice different styles?

I figure throwing money into the pot is the easiest thing you can do in holdem...Thats why I was kinda asking about size of the bets relative to the style...oh well...

I started by playing micro s&go's and now play micro cash. Typically though there are a few exceptions. The players at this level don't understand styles. They know they have two cards and a pair is Good.

Bet sizing is important but not becuase it will mean anything to your opponents. As long as you are pricing out draws and not chasing correctly then you should be fine.

Exit141RTe1 · Nov 2, 2008

I like the value bet. If the consertative palyer was not with you on your trap bet you might, just might, get a few more chips with the valve play. Nothing wrong with winning a good number of smaller pots. I see that as progress and building up your chips for the later play to try to finish of a good win.

bombomb · Nov 2, 2008

trapping can be a very good strategy to implicate when facing vary good players but in low limits you cant do it all the time, people will just hit their draws all the time and you will get screwed, make them pay to see every card! unless of course youve flopped an absolute monster like a flush or full house

rileyl · Nov 2, 2008

It really mainly depends on the stacks sizes. In tournaments and SNG's which you are playing the stacks are usually pretty small like 20BB's or so and this makes it alright to slowplay more because it's pretty easy to get the money even if you miss a bet here or there.

Once the stacks get deeper and you probably want to slowplay less because a missed bet on the flop might make you not be able to stack off a hand that you might have been able to had you bet the flop.

As for the above post, most decent players will see right through what your doing and probably just check behind alot of hands they might have otherwise called a bet with. I'm not saying there aren't situations to slowplay it's just that I think many players use it in certain spots they shouldn't.

peach68 · Nov 3, 2008

I think it'd be easy for your opponents to get a read on you,... you're checking your big hands and trying to bet them off the pot with your marginal hands (or w air from what I'm reading from this). Um... is it a 'value bet' if you're betting out to get them to fold? I thought this was a bluff-bet pot steal attempt?
I play TAG style myself. Sure I set traps and work at training my opponents but I'm c-betting flops the majority of times, this is how I get my monsters paid off. I'll occassionally check-raise a flop so that I'm able to check the flop with a marginal hand as well.
Mixing it up, changing gears, etc. etc.,.. trying to keep my opponents off balance, practising deception, etc.
I think that slowplaying is generally an over-used rookie tool in poker. I believe you mentioned yourself here that you have trouble getting paid off well on your good hands. If you're playing aggressively, raising it up preflop in position, narrowing the field to one or two opponents seeing the flop, 3-betting, re-steals from the blinds, etc. etc.,.. then when you do flop a set and you get out for 3/4 pot, you will get paid off on it,.. maybe you'll even get raised??
As mentioned above, slowplayers (passive/weak) often don't protect their made hands enough (especially in a multi-way pot!!!) and are letting their opponent's catch up in the hand. It's rare that I want to give my opponent a 'free card'.
GL!

hojediade · Nov 3, 2008

I would bet 3/4 of the pot or pot level.
In my opinion, betting high would be the solution as the opponent can place you on a small pocket pair you try to defend while facing a bad flop for it. Don't know if that was clear.

Gl anyway.

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Post flop betting dilemma

TurningStar

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NineLions

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c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

shinedown.45

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GSpicoli

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TurningStar

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TurningStar

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TurningStar

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Steveg1976

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Exit141RTe1

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bombomb

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rileyl

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peach68

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hojediade

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