Poor Play Equaled A Winning Night And Vice Versa

Hey gang...
Played a couple of sessions over the holiday weekend that kind of threw me for a loop. Thanksgiving night I played a $1/$3 session where the entire table was limping in preflop so I figured it would be an easy night of sorts. Every decent hand (9-10s for example) I got where I was first to act I raised hoping to only see maybe one or two callers but instead I got 3-4 sometimes 5 callers!! I c-bet the flop hoping to run off a few more callers but they're going nowhere! Now I have a BIG problem because I raised preflop with a good but not great hand and I keep firing at the pot but the people at the table aren't buying what I'm trying to sell them. And on top of that, I'm spewing chips because I missed th flop and now I'm on what is considered to be an absolute bluff! I eventually bust out but i felt good because I played great in spots but the cards didn't go my way.

Another session I had few days later where again the entire table is limping into the pot and instead of raising preflop, I limp in too! God forgive me but I did this with ALL of my premium hands!! I pretty much cleaned up at the table but by poker standards I played like complete crap!

Why is it that when I played the hands how I was supposed to by open raising into pots,c-betting on the flop etc I spew chips like a faucet but when I play like a complete donkey (a bit harsh I know) I was able to run over the table with relative ease? Another thing I noticed was that if my premium hands missed the flop, it was easier for me to muck them considering how cheap it was to play them in the first place. Whereas had I raised pre-flop then c-bet regardless if I hit the flop or not I'm kind of pot committed because of the money I've already put in the pot and I want to see the outcome.

Consistently opening hands like T9 from EP in a game where you're likely to get 3-5 callers and then cbetting into that many opponents doesn't seem like good poker to me.

I do agree that limping premiums isn't good either. As for the fact that it turned out to be very profitable in one session, that's not nearly enough of a sample size to prove anything.

Indeed, how do you know that you wouldn't have cleaned the table anyway if you had raised with those hands instead?

Arjonius said:

Consistently opening hands like T9 from EP in a game where you're likely to get 3-5 callers and then cbetting into that many opponents doesn't seem like good poker to me.

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Honestly, I didn't think I would get that many callers but insted it was like I stirred up hornets nest! The hand in question was a modest hand but should i have open raised with it? Or just mucked it? And once I saw that I missed the flop, don't waste another chip c-betting on the flop and muck it if someone bets?

Arjonius said:

I do agree that limping premiums isn't good either. As for the fact that it turned out to be very profitable in one session, that's not nearly enough of a sample size to prove anything.

Indeed, how do you know that you wouldn't have cleaned the table anyway if you had raised with those hands instead?

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Honestly, I have no idea how the game would have turned out had I raised those hands pre-flop. I just know that when I raised pre-flop and missed on the flop, it felt like I was chasing my loses since I couldn't make those other callers go away with a c-bet. And i eventually lost money doing this. Whereas when I limped in, I got more people in pot and got a better return on my initial investment. I'm still new at this so every session is a new lesson learned.

TxScorpion said:

I'm still new at this so every session is a new lesson learned.

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Keep in mind that playing live is so much different than plaing online. There will be people in .05/.10 games that will respect your raises, fold medium-strength hands to a big bet, etc etc. I have found that in live games (particular $1/$2, as this is the only live experience I have) there is none of that.

In my opinion, in $1/$2 live, you've gotta play so tight preflop, because you know that raising 5x preflop will not get near enough credit as it does online, and you'll end up seeing a flop 4 or 5 handed. In all honesty, wait for the nuts. I've found you get paid off by some pretty weird hands.

Also, don't bluff! You can put people on a weak ace on an AJ5 board, but realize that trying to raise to take them off of a weak ace will almost never work.

TxScorpion said:

Honestly, I didn't think I would get that many callers but insted it was like I stirred up hornets nest! The hand in question was a modest hand but should i have open raised with it? Or just mucked it? And once I saw that I missed the flop, don't waste another chip c-betting on the flop and muck it if someone bets?

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When you open-raise T9s from EP, you don't particularly want any callers since if you see the flop, you'll almost always be out of position. It's even worse if someone 3bets; you'll have to commit more money with your modest hand and usually OOP if you call, or fold and give up your original bet, or you can 5bet bluff, risking even more.

Cbetting when there's no realistic chance you're ahead and don't have a strong draw is basically a pure bluff. The more people you have to fold out, the harder it is for your bluff to succeed. In a game where 5 people have just called after you opened from EP, repping a pretty good hand, how likely is it that they'll now all fold? Check the flop and fold if anyone bets, Don't put more money in the pot in an unfavorable situation.

Honestly, I have no idea how the game would have turned out had I raised those hands pre-flop. I just know that when I raised pre-flop and missed on the flop, it felt like I was chasing my loses since I couldn't make those other callers go away with a c-bet. And i eventually lost money doing this. Whereas when I limped in, I got more people in pot and got a better return on my initial investment. I'm still new at this so every session is a new lesson learned.

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I'm not saying you should know how you would have done by playing better. The real point is that your goal should be to play good poker. Over the long run, this will be more profitable than playing less well. We all have sessions where we don't play very well and win anyway. That's a pretty poor reason for intentionally not playing well.

pretty much you did what was working and won . and you did what wasnt working and didnt try something else and lost. sounds like you need to work on your in game gears

I think one thing to remember, once you put money in the pot, IT IS GONE! If you continue a bet every time you bet preflop, it tells me to call you. At a tight table, if you got called, you have to assume somebody is holding. If it is a loose table, then 9 10 is not the hand to play in my opinion. I get real tight at loose tables. I get slightly loose at tight tables.

Arjonius said:

When you open-raise T9s from EP, you don't particularly want any callers since if you see the flop, you'll almost always be out of position. It's even worse if someone 3bets; you'll have to commit more money with your modest hand and usually OOP if you call, or fold and give up your original bet, or you can 5bet bluff, risking even more.

Cbetting when there's no realistic chance you're ahead and don't have a strong draw is basically a pure bluff. The more people you have to fold out, the harder it is for your bluff to succeed. In a game where 5 people have just called after you opened from EP, repping a pretty good hand, how likely is it that they'll now all fold? Check the flop and fold if anyone bets, Don't put more money in the pot in an unfavorable situation.

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The first thing I did after I got 5 callers with such a marginal hand was scream "FFFFAAAAAAWWWWWWKKKKK!" I LOVE playing suited connectors regardless of position but this was a yet another lesson learned. If I'm in EP and the hand isn't 99 or better, muck it and wait for a better hand if I'm in that position again.

Arjonius said:

I'm not saying you should know how you would have done by playing better. The real point is that your goal should be to play good poker. Over the long run, this will be more profitable than playing less well. We all have sessions where we don't play very well and win anyway. That's a pretty poor reason for intentionally not playing well.

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Duly noted Arjonius. Again, I'm just taking this as a lesson learned. Thanks!

smidjet said:

pretty much you did what was working and won . and you did what wasnt working and didnt try something else and lost. sounds like you need to work on your in game gears

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From what I'm learning, just because it was working doesn't mean it's right. I'll take a luck box victory any day of the week but I know that those days will come few and far in between. But you're right, being able to switch gears is yet another thing I have to work on. *face palm* Geeesh! LOL!

lost2qandisa said:

I think one thing to remember, once you put money in the pot, IT IS GONE! If you continue a bet every time you bet preflop, it tells me to call you. At a tight table, if you got called, you have to assume somebody is holding. If it is a loose table, then 9 10 is not the hand to play in my opinion. I get real tight at loose tables. I get slightly loose at tight tables.

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Ok...help me understand something. If I always raised preflop and then continuation bet on the flop, that would tell you to call me? Please correct me if I'm wrong here. I was always under the impression that if I didn't c-bet after the flop, it would let whoever was left in hand with me know that I missed the flop and could quite possibly win the hand with a bet.

If the roles were reversed, how would you have played this from EP, MP and LP?

TxScorpion said:

Ok...help me understand something. If I always raised preflop and then continuation bet on the flop, that would tell you to call me? Please correct me if I'm wrong here. I was always under the impression that if I didn't c-bet after the flop, it would let whoever was left in hand with me know that I missed the flop and could quite possibly win the hand with a bet.

If the roles were reversed, how would you have played this from EP, MP and LP?

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If an opponent has noticed that you cbet 100%, your c-bets represent the same range as your opening bets. How much his pre- and flop calling ranges differ is player-dependent. There are also other factors like the flop texture, the likelihood you'll barrel if you missed the flop and miss the turn, your perceived opening range, who has position, etc.

*In general* not cbetting is likely to suggest that you missed the flop. But if you cbet a reasonable portion of the time when you miss, it's only a suggestion, not a solid tell. You can also put some more gray into this read by not cbetting all your made hands, although this should only be done pretty selectively.