poker tournaments in bars

Hi guys, I'm new here

I've recently taken a big interest in poker and I've read a copious amount of literature but I understand all the reading in the world won't help me unless I get table experience..

I was just wanting to ask are these bar tournaments really a good reflection of skill? The blinds go up every 15 minutes so if you just try to play tight and only play good hands your chances of winning basically ends up on your cards (people always call you at these things for some reason no matter what, no way in hell is anyone folding top or even middle pair). I've also tried playing more aggressively (stealing, bluffing etc), but people seem to want to call with anything and everything. People will call your bets chasing 3-6 outers as if that's standard play. I won one and finished 6th in another and I've played about 8 or 9 now. The only bluffs I've pulled off are the times when they've literally had nothing either.

They are starting to frustrate me as the ones I have finished well in weren't because of my skill but rather my luck. It just seems like such a crapshoot but I wanted to confirm if this really is this case for say a tournament that gives you a 3k starting stack, blinds start 25/50 and go up every 15 minutes

clandestinegoat said:

Hi guys, I'm new here

I've recently taken a big interest in poker and I've read a copious amount of literature but I understand all the reading in the world won't help me unless I get table experience..

I was just wanting to ask are these bar tournaments really a good reflection of skill? The blinds go up every 15 minutes so if you just try to play tight and only play good hands your chances of winning basically ends up on your cards (people always call you at these things for some reason no matter what, no way in hell is anyone folding top or even middle pair). I've also tried playing more aggressively (stealing, bluffing etc), but people seem to want to call with anything and everything. People will call your bets chasing 3-6 outers as if that's standard play. I won one and finished 6th in another and I've played about 8 or 9 now. The only bluffs I've pulled off are the times when they've literally had nothing either.

They are starting to frustrate me as the ones I have finished well in weren't because of my skill but rather my luck. It just seems like such a crapshoot but I wanted to confirm if this really is this case for say a tournament that gives you a 3k starting stack, blinds start 25/50 and go up every 15 minutes

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Thats how pub poker goes.nobody folds pre if they have limped in and will not fold top or middle pair.They will also chase draws down to the river. So it is more luck than skill.at this level.

steveiam said:

Thats how pub poker goes.nobody folds pre if they have limped in and will not fold top or middle pair.They will also chase draws down to the river. So it is more luck than skill.at this level.

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what? hyper structures are higher variance, and less complicated due to the lower average number of streets played. but no less skillful

duggs said:

what? hyper structures are higher variance, and less complicated due to the lower average number of streets played. but no less skillful

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what are you strategies for these tournaments then?

If I play too tight I get blinded out, if I play aggressively I'll always be called by the limpers and when I don't hit there is no way I'm winning the pot.

educate me

duggs said:

what? hyper structures are higher variance, and less complicated due to the lower average number of streets played. but no less skillful

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As I said its a game of variance and who has the best variance wins..

This is the format I mostly play at the moment (live, weekly).

Since you often play the same people, you can often learn their habits (One of our guys is known as "[name] the fisherman"), so if he's in and betting he's got a draw on the go, one guy I know has a huge calling range, but a really tight opening range so I never bluff against this guy...

The only times I've been successful with this game format I really concentrated and thought about my opponents playing style and how I might best play against that - that said I've finished anywhere from 2nd to last currently so I'll agree with the big variance.

As for general strategies I tend to use standard SNG strategy but keep my ranges slightly wider and widen them up as time goes on and players drop out

As a beginner I play this game as it's my only local live game and it's better then playing online for fake money (Which I used to do - not any more), also it's a nice opportunity to meet people who share a liking for poker...

clandestinegoat said:

what are you strategies for these tournaments then?

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Play big pots with big hands. Overshove when you have the best hand. Open shove when your M<15. Play suited connectors from LP but ONLY when it's cheap and the blinds are unlikely to over shove. Overshove from the blinds with AK-AJ, AA-88, KQ, KJ, QJ, JT when there is a limped pot.

what jilly said, but also, tighten your calling range from nash push/fold drastically and widen your shoving. bet super exploitably and so that means massive for value and almost never bluff

Pub poker is where the phrase "But they were suited" was invented...you know, when your set of 8s gets beat by the guy who called your pre-flop raise with and rivers a flush.

Jillychemung said:

Play big pots with big hands. Overshove when you have the best hand. Open shove when your M<15. Play suited connectors from LP but ONLY when it's cheap and the blinds are unlikely to over shove. Overshove from the blinds with AK-AJ, AA-88, KQ, KJ, QJ, JT when there is a limped pot.

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I knew I should have taken out a patent on this strat it's how I play every NL game.

Bar games are easy to beat and also super hard to beat. If you can pick up hands and they hold you will profit nicely. But alot of people who play these just play for fun and will call with anything. You just need to ween out the draws

XDavidX808 said:

Bar games are easy to beat and also super hard to beat. If you can pick up hands and they hold you will profit nicely. But alot of people who play these just play for fun and will call with anything. You just need to ween out the draws

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Totally agree with this.

Most bar room games are easy to beat. Every once a while you'll run into somebody that's it hitting good, getting lucky whatever you want to call it. Them days you're gonna get beat, just the way it is.My advice to you is pay attention to the shuffles see if you can pick up on any cards, this will give you a slight advantage.

Learn the habits of the players with patience, and, see what happens. U will know how to play them then.

steveiam said:

Thats how pub poker goes.nobody folds pre if they have limped in and will not fold top or middle pair.They will also chase draws down to the river. So it is more luck than skill.at this level.

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If people are chasing all their draws, not folding top and middle pairs etc..it's actually a ton easier to beat these guys.

Even just a basic understand of poker and some basic tight aggressive play wil have a HUGE edge over these players.

Not sure how you think there is more luck than skill when it's the complete opposite in these cases.

steveiam said:

As I said its a game of variance and who has the best variance wins..

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True to a degree but so wrong in many ways. I play hyper turbos which are so much faster structures than a pub game; rest assured the bad players lose heavily in these games in the long run. Variance is just a standard part and very small part of the game when you look at the bigger picture. If you have a winning edge vs someone, over the long haul it's going to show and especially against people who call any two cards - you're going to show a huge win rate vs them.

XDavidX808 said:

Bar games are easy to beat and also super hard to beat. If you can pick up hands and they hold you will profit nicely. But alot of people who play these just play for fun and will call with anything. You just need to ween out the draws

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Super hard to beat players who call anything? No offense; but if you're struggling and assuming they are super hard because they call with anything then you're doing some drastically wrong else where as that is exactly the sort of player you're wanting to play against at a poker table.




OP: If the bar games you're playing are like you say and you're competent enough then there should be no reason and deffo no reason to suggest they are more of a crap shoot. These sort of players are the sort you should be able to gain an absolute huge edge against and crush by just playing a very basic game.

No need to bluff, no need to get creative; play you cards face up and basically they will pay you off with worse hands.

Is the M# approximately 2/3d's of the BB#?

There is very little skill involved in live MTTs with 15 minute levels. They are super high in variance. It really does come down to who catches and who doesn't.

If you play 10 of these things, I think you would be doing well to cash in 2 of them.

There is no stealing without resistance (rarely). There is no bluffing. If you don't get cards, you lose, it's that simple.

I think many of you who suggested otherwise are online players??? These people in pubs/bars/charity rooms are some of the worst players on the planet. Raise 5x and get 7 callers. Push all in pre and get 4 callers. This is not skill. It is primarily luck.

I have played in plenty of these MTTs, and in my humble opinion, you absolutely must run good to make it.

This is just MY OPINION, based on my experience with live MTTs. These things are different than online. I have played both.

You can play your A game, and that's about it. Luck plays a large role.

Make sure to order the specials during the game!

Beanfacekilla said:

There is very little skill involved in live MTTs with 15 minute levels. They are super high in variance. It really does come down to who catches and who doesn't.

If you play 10 of these things, I think you would be doing well to cash in 2 of them.

There is no stealing without resistance (rarely). There is no bluffing. If you don't get cards, you lose, it's that simple.

I think many of you who suggested otherwise are online players??? These people in pubs/bars/charity rooms are some of the worst players on the planet. Raise 5x and get 7 callers. Push all in pre and get 4 callers. This is not skill. It is primarily luck.

I have played in plenty of these MTTs, and in my humble opinion, you absolutely must run good to make it.

This is just MY OPINION, based on my experience with live MTTs. These things are different than online. I have played both.

You can play your A game, and that's about it. Luck plays a large role.

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Totally agree with this..Sums up the pub games perfectly..

Beanfacekilla said:

There is very little skill involved in live MTTs with 15 minute levels. They are super high in variance. It really does come down to who catches and who doesn't.

If you play 10 of these things, I think you would be doing well to cash in 2 of them.

There is no stealing without resistance (rarely). There is no bluffing. If you don't get cards, you lose, it's that simple.

I think many of you who suggested otherwise are online players??? These people in pubs/bars/charity rooms are some of the worst players on the planet. Raise 5x and get 7 callers. Push all in pre and get 4 callers. This is not skill. It is primarily luck.

I have played in plenty of these MTTs, and in my humble opinion, you absolutely must run good to make it.

This is just MY OPINION, based on my experience with live MTTs. These things are different than online. I have played both.

You can play your A game, and that's about it. Luck plays a large role.

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yes the game has higher variance in the short term, it doesnt detract from the skill element what so ever. the situations you described makes it the easiest game in the world to beat.

every tournament you have ot run good to make it, that applies to online/turbos/hypers/wsop.

AugustWest said:

Is the M# approximately 2/3d's of the BB#?

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The M is the total cost of playing an orbit, which includes the BB, SB and antes.

duggs said:

yes the game has higher variance in the short term, it doesnt detract from the skill element what so ever. the situations you described makes it the easiest game in the world to beat.

every tournament you have ot run good to make it, that applies to online/turbos/hypers/WSOP.

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Have you actually played in any of these pub games ?

Pub tourneys which typically have fast blind structures have a greater element of luck. With that being said, these donkaments are super soft and if you play solid poker you can still do well in them.

steveiam said:

Have you actually played in any of these pub games ?

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yes, but actually playing them doesnt change their theoretical difficulty

duggs said:

yes the game has higher variance in the short term, it doesnt detract from the skill element what so ever. the situations you described makes it the easiest game in the world to beat.

every tournament you have ot run good to make it, that applies to online/turbos/hypers/WSOP.

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You make it sound as if it is easy to cash....

pokerdave77 said:

Pub tourneys which typically have fast blind structures have a greater element of luck. With that being said, these donkaments are super soft and if you play solid poker you can still do well in them.

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Do well in them how often? 1 in 10? 2 in 10?

duggs said:

yes, but actually playing them doesnt change their theoretical difficulty

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Skill does have some impact on the game yes. If I had to assign a percentage I would say 20% skill/80% luck. Difficulty has little to do with it. If you don't catch cards, it doesn't matter how skilled you are.

However, you are talking like these games are so easy.... I don't understand how you can say that if you have played a bunch of them.

They are substantially different from online MTTs.