Poker Rules Question!!

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yanivgo123

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Hi all, I had an argument with a friend about some rule:

3 players in the pot. 1st one raises 20. 2nd player is all-in, and had 24. 3rd player calls 24. the 1st player says he's all-in (had more than 24). I say he can't go all-in in this situation. my friend says he can. what do you think??
Thanks
 
PoKeRFoRNiA

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He can't raise. 1st one raises to 20. second is all-in for 24. 24 isn't even double the raise. Even online, they don't let you raise. You can only call. If he had raised to 12 and then second player went all-in for 24, and 3rd player called, then yes, 1st player can reraise all-in since reraise was double or more than the size of the original raise.
 
OzRamos

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Yes #1 can shove over #2, but things get a little funky. The reason #1 can shove #2 is because #2's all in *is* a raise...he called you for 20 plus raised you 4.

However, anything #1 shoved in for over 24 is put into what's called a "side pot". Anymore money additional money you put in gets put into the side pot, and if #3 calls, then 24 of his chips go into the main pot and the rest into the side pot.

Now, if #1 or #3 wins then they get ALL the chips. However, if #2 wins, then he gets everything in the main pot and the side pot goes to whoever came in 2nd place.
 
OzRamos

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[ignore this, I think I'm wrong]

Yes #1 can shove over #2, but things get a little funky. The reason #1 can shove over #2 is because #2's all in *is* a raise...he called you for 20 plus raised you 4.

However, anything #1 shoved in for over 4 (#1 only raised 4 more than the last bet) is put into what's called a "side pot". Anymore additional money you put in gets put into the side pot, and if #3 calls, then 4 of his chips go into the main pot and the rest into the side pot.

Now, if #1 or #3 wins then they get ALL the chips. However, if #2 wins, then he gets everything in the main pot and the side pot goes to whoever came in 2nd place.

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So for example, lets say:
Player1: 100
Player2: 24
Player3: 100

#1 bets 20, #2 shoves 24, #3 calls 24
At this point, the pot is 68.

If #1 shoves, then the main pot becomes 72 (68+4), and the side pot become 96 (100-4). If #3 folds, then the most #2 can win is 72. If player #3 calls, then the most #2 can win is 76 (72 + 4 from #3).

4 comes from the fact that #2's raise was only 4 more than yours.

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Let us know if you have questions, because theres a lot of number being thrown around in the example lol
 
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cardriverx

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I believe Oz you are answering the wrong question and OP understands sidepots, but this is just IMO but OP is asking if Player #1 can shove and I believe the answer is No because Player 2's shove is not a big enough raise, and player 1 can only call.

I am not 100% on this but I think you are right, OP.
 
tony4680

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We need more info like blinds and a complete list of action to say for sure but it doesn't look like player one would be able to raise. Player 2's raise all in to 24 was not a full raise(unless your omitting previous action and and there was a bunch of raising that led somehow to a raise of 16 being reraised to 20 but this seems unlikely)

In this situation player 3 can either fold, raise, or call but player 1 can only call the 4(an obvious choice) or fold. He can only reraise if player 3 raises to an amount that would be considered a legal raise. The amount for the raise to be legal depends on the blinds or any previous raises that may have occurred prior to player 1's raise to 20
 
tony4680

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Check out this thread for a more in depth explanation of what legal raises/half bets are and how they affect other players options
 
DrazaFFT

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I cant say that im 100% sure but i think that he can raise, i only played live in home games so the rules can be flexible but online it happens often specially at micros
 
OzExorcist

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Assuming you mean that Player One opened the betting for 20 ("raised to 20" implies that somebody had already bet before him) then you're right, when Player Two goes all in for 24 and Player Three just calls the 24, then Player One's only options are to fold or call the extra 4.

For Player One to be able to raise, Player Two would have had to have made it at least 40 (again, assuming Player One opened the betting at 20 and that this is postflop). Anything less than that doesn't constitute a full raise and doesn't reopen the betting to anybody who's already acted.
 
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I think he can do a reraise again, I have seen it often in tournements. I raise then another player behind me raises again and then I can decide if I want to reraise or just to call. I think when I'm only calling the first round, then I can't do a reraise.
So I think because the player one raised first he can do a all in reraise.
 
OzRamos

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For Player One to be able to raise, Player Two would have had to have made it at least 40 (again, assuming Player One opened the betting at 20 and that this is postflop). Anything less than that doesn't constitute a full raise and doesn't reopen the betting to anybody who's already acted.

wow, I bookmarked your post in that thread Oz! So bascially #2 would have had to have had 40 for #1 to raise again?
 
INGAJ

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I'm not sure but i think he can't raise anymore. He can only call
 
WVHillbilly

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I am sure and he can NOT reraise. The all-in to 24 is not enough to reopen the betting. So anyone who hasn't already acted can certainly raise again but player 1 can NOT.
 
WVHillbilly

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He can't raise. 1st one raises to 20. second is all-in for 24. 24 isn't even double the raise. Even online, they don't let you raise. You can only call. If he had raised to 12 and then second player went all-in for 24, and 3rd player called, then yes, 1st player can reraise all-in since reraise was double or more than the size of the original raise.
BTW this is ALMOST right. It doesn't have to be double the amount to reopen the betting. It has to be of an equal or greater increment.

Example: 1/2NL
Player 1 makes it $12 preflop (this is actually a raise of $10 over the BB)
If player 2 shoves for $22 or more ($10 over Player 1's raise) then betting is reopened.

Lots of people think a bet has to be double the original raise to be valid but what I described above is actually the rule.
 
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Debi

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Please do not create the same thread multiple times - I have merged them all.
 
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yanivgo123

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Thank you all for your replies, here are some clarifications that would make it easier to answer i guess:

5 players in the game. blinds are 1/2. its PREFLPO: player 1- sb, player 2- bb. player 3- raises 22 (meaning adding 20 to the bb). player 4- fold. player 5- all in. he had 26 total, meaning he raised another 4 to what player 3 raised. player 1- fold. player 2- call. player 3- wanted to go all in (he had like 100 or something like that). this is where the argument began: can player 3 go all in or not? now i understand that player 3 can't go all in. but is that ONLY because player 5's all in wasn't doubling the raise? had player 5's all-in was 60 (for instance), and player 2 would call, could player 3 go all-in in that situation? and does it matter at all if this was preflop or poltflop? I would love to get clarifications concerning the exact rule.
THANK YOU ALL

one more clarification- this was in No-Limit Texas Holdem
 
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