Poker math skills

After having been given some good pointers and insights from a couple of members of CC (thank you, pokerlovesme and cjatud2012) and having studied Qtip's amazingly instructive video at DTB...I still find myself struggling with developing poker math skills. I'm working regularly on this stuff...giving myself homework, determined that if I keep working at it, it will begin to come more readily.

It's not yet and I've been working earnestly at it for weeks. I'd love some feedback on whether anyone else has struggled like this and actually developed their skills to the extent that they come almost naturally, enough so that it truly helps their game. I'm talking about people who are largely intuitive players and for whom math aptitude is a very real weakness.

I understand so much more about how to figure poker odds and ev. It did, though, present a large learning curve for me, I hate to admit. The problem is that I know how to figure out WHAT I need to know while I play but there is no time to do all the calculations that will give me the info I need to have...WHILE I play.

I have confidence in my intuitive skills although there is always room for improvement, of course. The trouble I'm having with making math skills my own, though...I'm finding it very discouraging.

Positive input will be appreciated...but any honest feedback is welcome. I want indications of what I can realistically expect.

What you need to do first is count your outs, like if you're on an open ended straight draw, like 78 and a 65K board you have 8 outs. In hold'em I use the rules of 2 and 4 to help me, so by "2" I mean you multiply by 2 (2x8=16) so you have around a 16% chance of hitting by the turn and a combined (4x8=24%) chance of hitting by the river. Hope that helped?

what situations do you need help with specifically? Pot odds? Hand equity? ICM? Really you just have to keep doing what you're doing, just play a lot and force yourself to practice, as long as you understand what you are doing the process of making some of those decisions become a lot quicker (granted, something like ICM can't be practiced at the table, so you need to practice away from the table so when the time comes that you actually need to make those decisions, the right move is sort of ingrained in your head. That would be how you practice ICM).

Actually, I do understand the 4-2 rule. I learned that through Qtip's video. If it's a straightforward situation like the straight draw you mention, that's no trouble. Even in a more complex situation, I know how to figure it out. It's when, in that more complex situation where the number of outs doesn't come to me readily and calculating them in time to include assessing other elements of the situation...stack sizes, player dynamics...in time to make the best decision that I have difficulty.

But, yes, that is the kind of rule that minimizes the calculation time and any kind of rule like that I find helpful. Something I can memorize.

cjatud2012 said:

what situations do you need help with specifically? Pot odds? Hand equity? ICM? Really you just have to keep doing what you're doing, just play a lot and force yourself to practice, as long as you understand what you are doing the process of making some of those decisions become a lot quicker (granted, something like ICM can't be practiced at the table, so you need to practice away from the table so when the time comes that you actually need to make those decisions, the right move is sort of ingrained in your head. That would be how you practice ICM).

Click to expand...

Well, ICM definitely, because that's new to me, as you know. The link you sent me has a lot of conceptual information that I grasp to some extent. It tends to get foggy, though, if I give it too much thought. Information overload, I think. How do I practice it away from the table? Examining hand history with SNG Wiz at hand? Which I can't afford to purchase yet...but eventually?

pot odds and equity, I do understand how to calculate these. I am able to figure it out replaying hands and in straightforward situations I can do it during play. For the most part, until beginning to try to develop these skills, the way I worked this out was a sort of intuitive sense that the odds seemed "good", "somewhat good", "not good"...that kind of thing. A general estimate that has been, oftentimes, effective enough. In improving math skills, my aim is to be able to arrive at a more accurate assessment as readily as that.

I need help, I suppose, with how to practice more effectively to achieve that goal. And determining whether I can realistically hope to do it. I don't want to waste my time if that's not the case...but am willing to put in the time if it's possible.


........................

I'll try to figure out how to be more specific about what I need help with and come back with it later. There are areas that I do understand now. I'm feeling generally overwhelmed, I suppose, because there is still so much to learn. I've edited this post a dozen times trying to get it explained clearly.

How many tables do you currently play at once?

What you might want to do is do this 'homework' in advance. Prepare a chart and put it right beside the computer.

Flush draw - 9 outs
Straight draw - 8 outs
Pair - 2 outs

etc.....

I'm sure those come easily to you, but for example 'flush and straight' draws, where you have to subtract any cards that make both (don't want to double count the outs) become more difficult.

Is short, write them all down and put it beside the computer. There are also quizzes online that you can find. Check those out as well.

I do admire your dedication. Many people say they want to get better. Usually it's those that do the work that end up getting the results.

Good Luck!

WVHillbilly said:

How many tables do you currently play at once?

Click to expand...

Ugh, Hillbilly. One...trying two and that's giving me trouble for exactly this reason. It's partially what frustrates me. I'd like to try more but there is no way at this rate.

Pokerstudent said:

What you might want to do is do this 'homework' in advance. Prepare a chart and put it right beside the computer.

Flush draw - 9 outs
Straight draw - 8 outs
Pair - 2 outs

etc.....

I'm sure those come easily to you, but for example 'flush and straight' draws, where you have to subtract any cards that make both (don't want to double count the outs) become more difficult.

Exactly! Double counting the outs...I second guess my calculations while I'm trying to do them. It's a good example of the type of situations that slow me down. I'll try having the chart at hand.

Is short, write them all down and put it beside the computer. There are also quizzes online that you can find. Check those out as well.

Where can I find quizzes? I've used Qtip's quizzes but I've done it so often they're no longer quizz-like.

I do admire your dedication. Many people say they want to get better. Usually it's those that do the work that end up getting the results.

Thanks. I really appreciate that.

Good Luck!

Click to expand...

I don't know how to quote two posts in one response. Pointers?

Sounds like you just need more practice. The more you do these calcs the more they become automatic. Playing 1 or 2 tables it could take a while but if it gives you the time you need to be confident that's probably best. Just know though that you can't always be perfect because you're opponents won't always have the range of hands your giving them.

Hi Lilli. Thanks for the props.

This stuff is just going to take some time. Here's a suggestion. Every day take one or two hands from the poker forums and then break it down. You could start with easy ones like facing all-in bets preflop. Then you could move to river decisions facing a bet, etc. This is not making posts, it's you answering others' posts. Force yourself to break down at least two posts a day. This may take you 30 minutes or more. Put all the math and your thoughts inside the posts so that others can correct your mistakes/thinking. This is exactly what I did back in 2004. You'll get better...and fast.

Best of luck with it.

And oh yeah...make your own quizzes. Then post them in a forum for others to take and then you respond. Again, this will put the learning curve in high gear.

Just commit the numbers to memory,
1 card to come
outs/odds
1 45 to 1
2 22 to 1
3 15 to 1
4 11 to 1
5 8 to 1
6 7 to 1
7 6 to 1
8 5 to 1
9 4 to 1
10 4 to 1
11 3 to 1
12 3 to 1
13 3 to 1
14 2 to 1
now if its an all in situation and you have two cards to come, just half it, another wards say your calling an all in on the flop you have 8 outs, so instead of 5 to 1 you only need 2.5 to 1, so pot of 2500 and u have to call 1000, your getting even money on your call, so u can call or fold as its a break even situation, but getting 3000 to 1000 call is 3 to 1 which is better than 2.5 to 1 so call as you will show profit. Thats it for odds calculations. (other than maybe discounting some outs is some situations) For an "m" online see what the starting pot is, and roughly see how many times it goes into your stack. thats it and its easy

You're welcome, Owen.

Well, I hear that I just need to keep at it...which I'll do. Still I wish that I would get a response from other mathematically challenged posters who have dealt with this successfully.

I'll give the recommendation of breaking down hands posted in the hand analysis section a go, Owen. Thanks for the suggestion.

Kingsin, thanks for all the Numbers.