Pocket Pairs vs. Overcards

n3rv

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I can pick up tells pretty easily for when someone raises with any two high cards as opposed to any high pocket pair.

However, I have went out of my last two tourneys by doing this. A basic example would be a player to the left raising far too high with K8o-JTo, in an attempt to crush the rest of the table. I get given pocket 7s-pocket 9s, and re-raise all-in thinking that they really can't/shouldn't call, and if they do call I have 4-5% equity over them anyway.

For whatever reasons they do call but this small advantage hasn't held up when it matters the most. In your experience is it worth it / does it really hold up most of the time? Also, heads-up, if you had a read on someone with Ace High, would you raise them all-in with pocket 2s? At what point do you consider the correct call in terms of equity not mattering?
 
Beanfacekilla

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I am not a tourney player, but I would still like to contribute.

Even with a solid read, I don't know if I want to risk my tournament with a flip. I would rather see a flop, and try and outplay villain, or simply wait for better spots.

It is going to be tough to fade two over cards when you ship it preflop. I personally would be waiting for a nice 60-40 spot at least to get it in.

However, I am a cash grinder. My advice may be bad anyways.
 
bullishwwd

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I can pick up tells pretty easily for when someone raises with any two high cards as opposed to any high pocket pair.

However, I have went out of my last two tourneys by doing this. A basic example would be a player to the left raising far too high with K8o-JTo, in an attempt to crush the rest of the table. I get given pocket 7s-pocket 9s, and re-raise all-in thinking that they really can't/shouldn't call, and if they do call I have 4-5% equity over them anyway.

For whatever reasons they do call but this small advantage hasn't held up when it matters the most. In your experience is it worth it / does it really hold up most of the time? Also, heads-up, if you had a read on someone with Ace High, would you raise them all-in with pocket 2s? At what point do you consider the correct call in terms of equity not mattering?
Depends on several other factors.

But, going 'all in' with only a "mid pair" and esp only 22 is "premeditated suicide" in my opinion. What kind of player are they? What's is chip situation? What is position?
 
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Depends on several other factors.

But, going 'all in' with only a "mid pair" and esp only 22 is "premeditated suicide" in my opinion. What kind of player are they? What's is chip situation? What is position?

If you narrow the field to head up, this is definitely not "premeditated suicide". The small advantage that mid pockets hold over big aces will materialize in the long run. Just keep in mind that you might be crushed by a higher pocket pair.

Also, not to be distasteful or anything, but is there any kind os suicide other than premeditated?

-HooDooKoo
 
Bowman26

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The advantage is too small to be worth the risk. Whether or not it holds up is left to chance after that just like every other hand. Only push when you have a lock on the nuts and you know it. Otherwise why risk hitting the rail for a 5% chance you might survive the remaining cards.
 
n3rv

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The advantage is too small to be worth the risk. Whether or not it holds up is left to chance after that just like every other hand. Only push when you have a lock on the nuts and you know it. Otherwise why risk hitting the rail for a 5% chance you might survive the remaining cards.

I know your question was rhetorical but to answer it the lock on the nuts doesn't come around often enough to win a tourney. Furthermore, the tighter I am, the less action I will get when I have the nuts. But you are right... I know if I play as tight as I can then I cash more often. However, I also know I will be bluffed out of the hand with higher pre-flop equity a lot of the time and that doesn't sit well with me.
 
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I know your question was rhetorical but to answer it the lock on the nuts doesn't come around often enough to win a tourney. Furthermore, the tighter I am, the less action I will get when I have the nuts. But you are right... I know if I play as tight as I can then I cash more often. However, I also know I will be bluffed out of the hand with higher pre-flop equity a lot of the time and that doesn't sit well with me.
n3rv --- only playing the nuts is a losing strategy. I'd recommend that you disregard Bowman26's post.

There is no right way to play those middle pocket pairs. I mix it up with them. Sometimes I limp them, sometimes I raise them, sometimes I 3-bet them, sometimes I push with them. It depends on a whole host of factors and I'm not going to write a 3-page post to detail them, especially because THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER.

The bottom line is this: if you KNEW that your opponent had AK and you could get him all in every hand against your pocket 8s, you'd make a LOT of money in the long run.

Best of luck.

-HooDooKoo
 
sam1chips

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The bottom line is this: if you KNEW that your opponent had AK and you could get him all in every hand against your pocket 8s, you'd make a LOT of money in the long run.

Best of luck.

-HooDooKoo

Haha yes but isn't that the problem? A lot of villains are going to play TT-AA the same way as they play AK, especially if they don't have a ton of chips. You can't know what they have until they flip their hand over. And i know there are a ton of other variable involved, but I would much rather call a raise with 66-88 (especially with position) and see what happens from here.

Note: I'm primarily a cash game player as well, but do have experience in tournament.
 
sam1chips

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Also another note, two red deuces are an underdog to AK of spades...
 
n3rv

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Haha yes but isn't that the problem? A lot of villains are going to play TT-AA the same way as they play AK, especially if they don't have a ton of chips. You can't know what they have until they flip their hand over. And i know there are a ton of other variable involved, but I would much rather call a raise with 66-88 (especially with position) and see what happens from here.

Note: I'm primarily a cash game player as well, but do have experience in tournament.

That isn't really the problem... I probably wouldn't do it if they had AK. If I have a tell for their K8-JT raise then it is generally different to their TT-AA/AK raise. If my read is wrong then I accept I played the hand wrong; it isn't a problem when I lose with the weaker hand as I know I made a mistake.

The problem is when I get it right, that I do have equity, and they still call it - because it puts the tourney life on the line each time I do get it right. As HooDooKoo says, it is the right play because eventually, if you play enough, you should win more than you lose. The issue is that you have to double up a few times to win big in a tourney so you need to "not be unlucky" more times than in a cash game.

How often does calling a raise with 66-88 work out? It is a big pay day when it comes off but the odds of flopping a set are 7/1 so I think you're losing more overall (unless you are deep-stacked). Your odds are significantly better than that playing them all-in heads-up against separate overcards. It's just when you win or lose, you risk more at that particular time.
 
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Propane Goat

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The advantage is too small to be worth the risk. Whether or not it holds up is left to chance after that just like every other hand. Only push when you have a lock on the nuts and you know it. Otherwise why risk hitting the rail for a 5% chance you might survive the remaining cards.

So when you are like a blind squirrel and can't seem to find the nuts, no matter how many hands go by, are you just going to let yourself be blinded out? How often do you make Aces full or high quads? We're not talking about cash games, in tournies you will have to make a move all-in sooner or later and often with much less of a hand than you would like to have.

I've seen people let their stacks get blinded down to absolutely nothing because they refuse to shove anything other than AA or KK. If you find yourself UTG with 3BB left just cover up the bottom of your screen and shove with whatever you have.
 
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