Pocket Pairs - Post Flop

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ballers101

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Now I always have a major issue playing pocket pairs.

For example, let's say I'm SB and I have 88s (stack of 1500), folds around to me I call the BB of 100, BB raises to 300, I call.

Flop Q 2 3

I check, BB raises to 400, I push, he calls and he shows KQ.

How can I make myself realize that the BB has KQ?
 
seanDCFC

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Now I always have a major issue playing pocket pairs.

For example, let's say I'm SB and I have 88s (stack of 1500), folds around to me I call the BB of 100, BB raises to 300, I call.

Flop Q 2 3

I check, BB raises to 400, I push, he calls and he shows KQ.

How can I make myself realize that the BB has KQ?

Why would you go all-in in that situation?
 
dwbrown7680

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If it folds around to you in the SB you should be opening 100% of the time with 88 or any pocket pair really. If he shoves over the top you can call profitably most of the time depending on stack size. As played however, you're probably only ever going to get called by hands that beat you, folding out stuff that you're ahead of.
 
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BlueNowhere

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raise/call > limp/shove > limping/folding flop >>>>>>>>fold pre>>>>>>>> limping/gii on that flop

Issue solved, just raise pre at some point.
 
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ballers101

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Alright, so you guys kind of misinterpreted my example and the situation. There's no way in hell I'm not raising pre-flop on the SB with 88. Now I think I either had to fold or push on the flop, that seems obvious enough. This is more of my heads-up play if anything, it happens to me when I have middle pair, I push all in against a HU opponent and they call and show top pair. I like to put my opponents on bluffs and sometimes it works but most times they turn over the nuts, I just want some tips to make it easier for me to fold these types of hands.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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I honestly don't understand the question.
 
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recoveryagent

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if i had a mid or low pair and someone comes over the top i muck 99 percent of the time
 
Arjonius

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Alright, so you guys kind of misinterpreted my example and the situation. There's no way in hell I'm not raising pre-flop on the SB with 88. Now I think I either had to fold or push on the flop, that seems obvious enough. This is more of my heads-up play if anything, it happens to me when I have middle pair, I push all in against a HU opponent and they call and show top pair. I like to put my opponents on bluffs and sometimes it works but most times they turn over the nuts, I just want some tips to make it easier for me to fold these types of hands.
If "there's no way in hell" you're not raising, then why provide an example where you limp?
 
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stg1969

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Alright, so you guys kind of misinterpreted my example and the situation. There's no way in hell I'm not raising pre-flop on the SB with 88. Now I think I either had to fold or push on the flop, that seems obvious enough. This is more of my heads-up play if anything, it happens to me when I have middle pair, I push all in against a HU opponent and they call and show top pair. I like to put my opponents on bluffs and sometimes it works but most times they turn over the nuts, I just want some tips to make it easier for me to fold these types of hands.

But you didnt raise, you limped in, and when the BB raised, you called... sorry but thats lame, either raise with your 8's and if he reraised, fold, or push, or fold.. the way you have described the hand in your OP just makes you look weak, sorry if that offends, but limp/call is weak (unless your being risky and trying to trap with AA)
 
Poker Orifice

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Now I always have a major issue playing pocket pairs.
with a stack size of 15bb's here, holding '88', you should be looking to get the chips in the middle
For example, let's say I'm SB and I have 88s (stack of 1500), folds around to me I call the BB of 100, BB raises to 300, I call.
Limping here is uber-bad, 'unless' you have history w villain in BvB play where you feel they're raising here if you limp in BvB (< still though, on 15bb's..
Here you make one mistake & then follow it with another... once you've limped & BB raises... 'never' just 'call' there in that spot. Your first mistake actually gave you a great oppurtunity to make up for it by LRRAI (limp-reraise-allin) over BB's 3x there in that spot. Perfect oppurtunity to get ur chips in.. but you 'call'.
Flop Q 2 3

I check, BB raises to 400, I push, he calls and he shows KQ.

How can I make myself realize that the BB has KQ?
You can make yourself realize that the play you should really be asking about here is the 'preflop' situation BvB with a stack size of 15bb's while holding 88 in SB. (if you've played well preflop, you wouldn't be in the situation postflop)
 
1luckysob

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Now I always have a major issue playing pocket pairs.

For example, let's say I'm SB and I have 88s (stack of 1500), folds around to me I call the BB of 100, BB raises to 300, I call.

Flop Q 2 3

I check, BB raises to 400, I push, he calls and he shows KQ.

How can I make myself realize that the BB has KQ?

If it folds around to u in the SB and u have 88 there is no way you should be limping first of all that should have been a raise, secondly you check the flop of Q 2 3....You should be betting this flop ( not too crazy of course but bet to find out where you are in the hand). If he has KQ in this spot he is probably 3betting in which case you can assume your beat and fold, check shove here is a terrible play after he raised pre flop
 
1luckysob

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I like to put my opponents on bluffs and sometimes it works but most times they turn over the nuts,

"sometimes" would imply that its the lower percentage then "most times", if you are losing "most times" then how is that not a hint to you that something is wrong here....

I just want some tips to make it easier for me to fold these types of hands.

......stop putting people on bluffs and it will make it easier to fold........:banghead:
 
ShortStack01

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Now I always have a major issue playing pocket pairs.

For example, let's say I'm SB and I have 88s (stack of 1500), folds around to me I call the BB of 100, BB raises to 300, I call.

Flop Q 2 3

I check, BB raises to 400, I push, he calls and he shows KQ.

How can I make myself realize that the BB has KQ?

My $.02 (assuming you and the BB are about equal in chips)

Raise pre-flop to 300, fold to 3 bet, why stack off on a coin flip if you're not SSed? If BB calls pre-flop, bet 3/4 pot on flop. If called, check and get ready to let it go on the turn unless you hit a set. If 3 bet on flop, fold and look for a better spot to get your money in. It's a nice chunk of your stack but if he missed the Q you'll pickup a nice pot more often than not.
 
duggs

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raise/call in a tourney, shove in a sng
 
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mcbluffin311

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Raise pre-flop to 300, fold to 3 bet, why stack off on a coin flip if you're not SSed? If BB calls pre-flop, bet 3/4 pot on flop. If called, check and get ready to let it go on the turn unless you hit a set. If 3 bet on flop, fold and look for a better spot to get your money in.
Sorry, but this is a terrible line. He is short, he has 15bbs. Calling 3bbs then betting 4.5 (3/4 pot) on the flop puts in 7.5bbs, exactly half of the starting stack. Putting in half of your stack with the intent of shutting down and folding is almost never a good play.

Shove it pre. Maybe you could raise to 4bbs pre and shove the flop (Q32 is a pretty good flop for 88), but that often leads to a tough decision from OOP, so shoving pre is better. Most of the time you will pick up the blinds (which are at 10% of starting stack are worth picking up), and BB will only have a higher pair 2.7% of the time, and you are at least slightly ahead of anything else he will turn over.

Let's assume BB only calls with 99+, AT+, KT+, QT+ and JT. 88 has 47.25% equity against this range. The remaining 85.2% of the time you pick up the blinds. EV of a shove pre is +1.156bbs. If BB will call other hands, like pairs under 88 or ace-rag, EV rises. If he will only call with higher pairs, AA-99, your equity actually rises, to +1.205bbs.

Obviously, ICM considerations will change things.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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ShortStack01 actually put me on tilt with that post.

I sincerely hope its a level..
 
hackmeplz

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Just shove pre the first time. As played why are you convinced you have to either fold or shove this flop? Why can you not call?
 
ShortStack01

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ShortStack01 actually put me on tilt with that post.

I sincerely hope its a level..

My reasoning was that if you're close to the money it's better to have a chance to get past the bubble and cash than push. Otherwise I would have played it differently depending on my read and how I was betting at the table prior to the hand.

*Edit*
Also, I was always taught that SSed is 10BBs or less (in regard to the other poster). I've been playing for a while successfully at lower limits (mostly SnGs in college), was I taught wrong?

*Edit #2*
I don't want to give the impression that just because I've been playing for a while I'm a great player lol. I'm mediocre at best xD. I'm always trying to improve my game but I have a feeling most of you would take me to the cleaners if we sat down at a table. I do ok when playing but probably leave a lot of money on the table compared to most of you. I've always made money but I play at the low stakes. I'd love to learn where the leaks in my game are but I don't think I could afford to sit down at a table with most of you lol. Just a working stiff who enjoys poker as a hobby ;-)
 
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OMGITSOVER9K

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fair enough, think I was actually on tilt when posting that..

I am most of the time.

I class 15bb and lower short. (when there's no real room for post flop play)

in this spot raise call like 100% of the time.. (unless its a super nit obv) in tournaments we want to be pushing for FT's instead of min cashes, so passing up a +ev spot to squeak into the money is losing us more money over time.

if you're not comfortable postflop with 15bb, which you should be if you're a tourney reg.. just open jam and it should still be profitable.

also why 3/4 pot? I thought standard tourney lines were to bet smaller when balancing (depending on board texture naturally) to make cbets with air cheaper, its what I do when I play them from time to time.

but yeah, to sum up:
Let's assume BB only calls with 99+, AT+, KT+, QT+ and JT. 88 has 47.25% equity against this range. The remaining 85.2% of the time you pick up the blinds. EV of a shove pre is +1.156bbs. If BB will call other hands, like pairs under 88 or ace-rag, EV rises. If he will only call with higher pairs, AA-99, your equity actually rises, to +1.205bbs.

this. ^
 
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mcbluffin311

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My reasoning was that if you're close to the money it's better to have a chance to get past the bubble and cash than push.
This is how a lot of players think, but it is not a profitable strategy. A typical min cash is less than 2 buy ins (unless its a rebuy), so even at a 50% ITM it is not profitable, and 50% is simply not a sustainable figure over a significant sample size. One deep run, on the other hand, can easily pay 30-50+ buyins. So taking +EV situations to build a stack and go deep is a superior strategy, even if it costs you min cashes from time to time (and remember you aren't sacrificing all of your smaller payouts; if you get the money in correctly, it won't really cost you that many). Overcoming the "cash at all costs" mindset is very difficult for many players.

Also, I was always taught that SSed is 10BBs or less
I think of a small stack as one that doesn't allow me to make the moves that I would like to. In this hand with 15bbs, for instance, a raise pre followed by flop bet commits us to this pot. So cbetting to steal is no longer in our arsenal, because once the flop bet is out half our stack is in and calling a shove is practically mandatory since we are getting 3:1 for the call. If we cannot possibly call a shove, then the first 2 bets should probably not have gone in either, because you have to commit or fold very early in the hand (often preflop and almost always by the flop) with a short stack. I don't have an exact number, but probably around 20bbs. With <10bbs I'm looking for spots to get it all in, and almost never put any portion of my stack in without the intention (or at least willingness) to get it all in. This is usually shove pre or fold territory.

Just a working stiff who enjoys poker as a hobby ;-)
As am I, so take my advice at your own risk. Best of luck to you!
 
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Johniblayze

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nashshove.jpg


I think the best line here is to raise/call. We should be raising like atc here & villain can place us on much much weaker holdings. We should be able to induce alot of shoves that he will make incorrectly. If your worried about playing post flop and want to avoid that you can also just shove pre for much more than 15bb.

gl & run good
 
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